Welcome to zombie strains, the podcast that watches all the zombie movies. We have a treat for you this week as Andy and I dive into 1960s spooky zombie television. This week, it's the show Thriller from 1961 with the episode Pigeons From Hell.

You know, I've seen people act like that in pictures. What do they call them, zombies or something?

Zombie.

Zombie?

What's a zombie?

Well a zombie…there’s um... ...Mr. Bill there’s... ...the living dead.

They are the living dead.

Get me the zombies!

Against an army of zombies, no armies could stand!

The unburied dead are coming back to life and seeking human victims.

I’ve seen the dead rise.

Kill the brain, and you kill the ghoul.

Hey everybody, I'm John

and I'm Andy and once again we have we have locked producer Brad out of the Zombie Strains lab and we'll be discussing things without him. So yes. Yeah, we're taking a little break between movies for season three season three is a big season for us. It's going to cover just the 1970s and though it's not the last move we watched in the 70s. It's going to culminate with of course Dawn of the Dead in 1978. But we've got a long way to go before we get there. And what producer Brad is prepping that and doing a lot of research, and in I thought we would do some fun episodes on other things we sort of didn't get a chance to cover.

And Andy, tell us what your idea was and what you discovered. Yeah. Well, what I was thinking is so this podcast is about the evolution of zombie movies. Yes, but one thing that that means we don't usually cover is zombies as they appear in television otherwise decades. Yep. So with the exception of one episode from the man from uncle, we are watching TV shows that involve zombies. But in the 60s there were a couple of television shows that features zombies and John and I thought it would be interesting to see just to visit those and see how they mirror or don't mirror the zombie movies that were playing in theaters at the same time. Yes. So that's where we are today. So the episode that Andy pitched to me, he didn't know how excited would I would be. It's a show I'd never heard of. It is a horror anthology show called Thriller from the early 60s that ran from 1960 to 1962 and had about 67 episodes. It's of the twilight zone style, but it is different. First of all, it's earlier than the Twilight Zone. And second of all, it has a more dramatic flare to it. And it's not a sort of twisty and clever as the Twilight Zone, but the important part for us is the host. It's not rather serling like the Twilight Zone. It is our fan favorite and zombie-strains favorite, Boris Carloff. Yeah, which was interesting to me. So he sort of comes in the beginning of the show and he talks about the tears that you're about to encounter and it's kind of delightful when we get to that part. I will Because he doesn't do it at the beginning. It's sort of like there's like a it's almost structured like a movie there's like a teaser beginning then Boris comes in and tells us the scoop and then then we jump back into the episode. The other delightful thing about this TV show is that it's the old commercial model. So a 60 minute TV show has 52 minutes of TV, which is so foreign to us, that's like 10 minutes longer. Then, like, did you know, for example, I didn't know this until much later, that when you and I were watching Star Trek reruns in the late 70s and early 80s, Those were not the original broadcast versions, because they were now more commercials. So they cut a bunch of stuff and I didn't actually see the fuller versions until later until VHS and DVD. Yeah. So okay. Anyway, this is the same kind of thing here. But that's not the important part. The important part is that it's based on a story called and don't laugh. Pigeons from hell. Uh, and sorry, that no, that's an unfortunate name for a great story by one of our great pulp writers. So it is a horror story by a man named Robert E. Howard. Do you know what Robert E. Howard is famous for, Andy? uh... he's most honest for the conan stories right correct he invented the adventure conan the stomerian aka the barbarian he also invented some other characters which you probably haven't heard of but uh... have been around he invented Solomon Kane uh... which had a movie in some stories uh... he invented a boxer he also invented red Sonya however it's not the red Sonya that you know about from the conan comic books and a couple of movies she was actually a uh... you cranium polish warrior and adventurous who she had a gun and a cutlass and she was trapped during the siege of Vienna and had a personal, had it personally in for the Sultan, the Ottoman Sultan. So that's her story. She only appeared in one story and then then the comic writers took her put her in a chamber of bikini and turned her into. Okay, but I don't know the chain mail bikini version. Yeah, that's my mind is being born right. Yes, exactly. However, let's talk about Howard for a minute and then we'll get into this story because I think his biography is interesting. So, Robert E. Howard, the author of the original story, was born on January 22nd, 1906 in Pester, Texas. When he was a teenager, he moved across Plains, Texas. And at the age of 11, he started writing pulp stories, and he wrote so many stories that in 1925, when he was only 19, he started submitting them to a lot of the pulp story magazines that were out at the time. And he finally got accepted in a magazine called Weird Tales. Andy, you've heard of Weird Tales. What is Weird Tales Famous For? Weird Tales is probably best known today for featuring some of the stories of HP Lovecraft. Yes. It was sort of an incubator for a lot of pulp horror and fantasy writers. Would that be a good thing to say? Yeah, and you can think of it as like this group of quote-unquote amateur writers who found an outlet for these pulpby stories they were writing. These stories of high adventure or deep horror. And in fact, one of the connecting tissues of this whole group was HP Lovecraft. I don't know. We are going to get to some of his work. For example, there's an 80s version of one of his stories called Reanimator, which is nothing like the story. But we'll get to him eventually. But he was also a famous course. He corresponded with all the other writers. And I think, Andy, you read his collected letters, which was like 1,600 pages. I've read, so I read a very huge biography that was like 16. Okay. So, but Lovecraft is famous for an absolutely insane amount of course. Yeah. I said collect the letters, but that would be impossible. Thousands of letters. Yeah. It was a genuinely sobering thing to realize how much correspondence he sent and received from other people. It's just like an alien world from today, right, where we are hard pressed to respond to an email, right? This was someone who probably devoted hours of each day to just writing letters to people. Yeah, so this group was all this weird tails group was all sort of connected through him. Anyway, we don't have to belabor this. Yeah, Robby Howard invented Conan. So, but back to our actual episode, I just, I never was, I was never going to get a chance to talk about Robby Howard on this podcast, so I'm just ceasing my opportunity. Yeah, of course. In any case. It is the 36th episode from season one. That's a lot of episodes. Yeah, this was a two-season show with 67 episodes, just so you have an idea of it. It's, of course, Boris Carloff. It was written by John Canoble, with credit to Robert E. Howard, directed by John Newland. They did make changes to the store and when we get to those, I will cover them. It stars a couple of people we won't go into them in detail. None of them are super famous today other than Boris Carloff. Branded the Wild, placed him in this episode. He is the survivor. He actually had a tragic life. He also died young. He was a rising actor. He had just starred across from Paul Newman in a movie called Hood. And he was driving to the hospital to check on his wife and died in a car accident. She had just had a surgery. So it's very sad. I'd also stars David Warf is Johnny Brander, who is Tim's friend, and we'll find out what happens to Johnny pretty quick. Cran Denton plays the sheriff in this episode. And there is an old... old servant from Barbados who holds the secret to this story. His name in the TV episode is Jacob Blount. He's played by Ken Rennard. So the only last name I wanted to mention and we're not going to go into this in detail. There's a woman named Otola Nesmith who plays there's a sort of elderly character later in the story played by this woman. She was born in 1889 and had been a professional actress and this is one of her last roles. So I just found that I didn't recognize him, but the sheriff actor who I forgot in his name already, he had incredible like that guy of mine. Yeah, he seemed like he would be a perfect character actor for this sort of role. Yeah, if you look through his stuff, it's all, it's every show from the 1960s, every West Perry Mason, the Gunslinger, the Texan, all, you know, good to tell everything. You have that look. But he wasn't a couple of famous movies. He wasn't a killer mockingbird. as a minor character so like yeah he's definitely uh he has like a billion credits and he's been in everything uh yes it's Sheriff Brockner so okay I don't think we need to go into too much more detail about the production here I've I've rattled on long enough let's talk about this story and the opening So just to start here, I have not read the story. I have obviously watched this episode, so is there anything you want to tell us about the story that we need to know before we jump into this adaptation of it? I don't think so because it actually follows the story very closely and the important difference. There's two important differences. One is geographic, which doesn't make that much of a difference. This episode is set in Louisiana, I think. the deep south in like swampy Louisiana. Most of Howard's stories were set in East Texas sort of on the Arkansas border where there's also like a swampy area like pine swamp kind of stuff, and that's where that's set in his story. So there's a change of location. The other big difference is the ending is different in an important way that we will talk about what we get there. Well, can we talk then before we didn't get into it? Can we talk about the setting? Yes. This is set in the swamps of Louisiana, right? It is. Do you want me to give a short summary of the episode and then we can dive into the research? Give a short summary and then I have a question about just the geography. Sure. Go ahead. So two friends are traveling presumably from New York. They're driving through the deep south and their car gets stuck. and they can't get it out so they decide to find this creepy old plantation where they decide to spend the night like you do. However, this plantation is swarmed with pigeons hence the name of the story. During that encounter in that first night, one of the friends Johnny dies and comes back to life and tries to kill Timmy, who flees into the swamp, finds the local sheriff and That's the, and it has to do with sinister family secrets and that sort of thing. So yeah. Well, I was just going to say I feel like post civil war plantation. Like America does not have a rich history of scary, Gothic location. No, but I think the best we can do and it can be quite good is this creepy old southern plantation deep in the swamp. That's as close as we get to like a gothic castle from Europe. Yes and in fact if you remember the intro to the show Scooby-Doo where are you? It features a gothic house in a swampy, foggy land. It doesn't say the deep south but that's the exact image because it's probably Okay, so yeah, do you want your your drive in today, John, so jump us into the story here. Yeah, so we have we meet our two main characters. They're driving. They're they're clearly lost. They're driving on a road. We see the exterior of their car, which is a 1953 Ford Crest Line Sunliner. This thing like the I marvel sometimes at like the tank like size and a bulk of these cars. It's fairly ridiculous. However, immediately their car gets stuck. It hits a... It hits a tree and it ends up in with one wheel in the swamp, which looks like quick stand kind of stuff. And they realize they're not going to get this thing out. They debate walking back to the town. Johnny goes off to find something a log or something so they can like leverage the car or put it under the tire so the tire can roll. and swarming this plantation and on the lawn in front of it are hundreds of what, Andy, hundreds of pigeon pigeons, yes. And as he approaches this, they all attack him. And he goes running in his screams and his friend Tim, the other guy in the car comes running. The pigeons have settled down by the time Tim gets there, but Johnny is absolutely horrified by this exchange. And I think that's where the teaser ends. Then we get to Boris. Yeah. So let's pause for a quick second though. So pigeons like you said at the beginning that the title pigeons from hell feels a little unfortunate. Yes, it doesn't really help. But there, you know, it is a, it can be an effective horror trope to take something that is very much the opposite of horrifying and just put it into a context we're not used to to make it scary, right? Like so Yeah, so I think that's what they're going for here, just the in-congruity of seeing this flock of pigeons in the middle of this swamp. I think, is it scary? Not exactly, but it just discombobulates you a little bit. It does. And I would actually argue this episode is a great job with that cooling pigeon sound. Yes. As a sort of harbidger of scary things to come, which they execute really well. Then we get to Boris with the worst pencil mustache. Like He actually gives a wonderful intro about spirits coming back to life and the spell of a terrible curse. Here's a clip of some of what he says right here. Spirits come back from the dead to guard their ancestral home against intruders. Spirits that in life head on evil and now in death return to feed upon the living. Return each night, driven relentlessly. What I love about this little Rod Serling-esque introduction is that he's constantly glancing around fearfully as if he's there in the horror story. It's very different than the way Rod Serling does it, and I found it to me. Yeah, I love Boris. You could put Boris in the crappiest movie ever, and he's just going to sell it like he just goes for it. And his narration is so funny, once you realize he's the narrator of the Grinch, you're like, well, now I can't unhear that. So when he's narrating this horrible scary thing, when you don't see him, you're like, oh, here's the Grinch, you know, so it's kind of funny in that way. Yeah, so, but he tells, he goes on for quite a while, like I think as we've noticed in some other movies we've covered John, there's a certain virtue in the very in the brevity of rod serlings. Yes. But Carlovia goes on about spirits returning from death to guard their home against intruders. Yes, which is a living primed for the rest of the story. Yes. So let's get back to our story. We've got John and Tim now. Could we talk about Tim for a second? He's our survivor. John's about to buy it, and I'll tell you how in a second. But but Tim is the guy who's like he didn't get scared. He didn't get attacked by the pigeons. you know but he's like hey let's just stay here let's stay in this abandoned old house it'll be fine we'll just get up tomorrow is getting dark who is this person like is it just because we grew up watching fight of the 13th that we think this person who would be like yeah let's just what's the big deal it's just a creepy ancient house covered in cobwebs let's just stay here like who is that person I don't the person actually exists anymore Yes, he's a, and he's such a boy scout like in his appearance and his demeanor throughout I forgot to mention something about him. He tragically died in 1930, but you know, and I know his first movie role in a big movie role. He played the little boy in Shane starring Alan Ladd. So when there's that little boy running at the end going, Shane, come back. This is that same actor. So. In that case, yes, he's got the whole boy scout thing going on. One thing I like about their relationship, so in the stories there are not brothers in this they are brothers. And they had that sort of disgruntled argumentative banter that brothers would have. They're irritated with each other, they sort of challenge each other. So I actually really liked that part of the story. Yeah, me too. Yeah. So they decide they camp out in the middle of the floor. go to sleep and John awakens in the middle of the night and he hears something upstairs. Now, did you feel that that John was investigating something upstairs or do you feel like he was compelled like in a trance? Um, good question. I thought at the time I watched it that he was investigating. I think so too. However later, I mean, so what he hears is the sound of a woman's singing. Yes, later a character will hear the same sound and it and will act as if he is being compelled to go up there to to meet it. Yes, I felt like he was just a being drawn up by his kind of morbid curiosity that was going on. I agree, in the story he is in a trance. He gets sung by the woman, but here the actor plays it as if He just has to look into it, you know what I mean? He still looks like he's, he is aware of himself. In a case, we're noting at that at this point, when they were briefly exploring the house before or setting out their sleeping bags. Oh, right. The camera did zoom in on the painting and old painting of a woman. Yes. So, well, because, thank you for that for this. For flagging that, because that will of course become important later. Yes. Yeah, that was the, as the camera zooms in for like 10 seconds here, like, oh, I wonder if this will prove to be central to the plot. Yes. is identical to the story. Good because it's great. So what happens is John Wander's upstairs. He wanders into the darkness. You hear him scream. This wakes up, Tim, who rushes up the stairs. And he hears something, and he's like, John, he's calling from Johnny, are you there? And out of the darkness holding a bloody hatchet is John, but his own head has been split in half. And he lumbar's towards Tim, swings his hatchet, just barely missing Tim, who flees into the swamp. And then the show goes to commercial. Now, I want to talk about this because this is our, I think there's two zombies in this show. This is our first, the first one we see. Yes. How do we feel about this zombie, Eddie? Well, first off, I was a little surprised. This was on TV in early 60s, because by modern standards, of course, it's quite tame, but he's like covered with blood. And the hatchet is dripping blood, and it's clear that he's dead, and he's come back, and he's using the hatchet that we used to kill him to try to kill Tim. I mean, that's a lot. I was pretty impressed by her first zombie. Yeah, he's a, he is very much a mindless killer. In a sense, like he's point, we've got zombie movies that have much less scary grotesque zombies than this. And he, he feels more like a modern zombie in the sense that, like he seems mindless and he has one goal which is to kill the human. You know what I mean? Tim runs into the swamp. He gets, he passes out and gets found by a local guy who lives in a shack with his wife. Can I pause that for a minute it is so it is kind of funny. He's like sprinting and he just sort of collapses as if from exhaustion Yes, when is the last modern movie you watch John where the hero fainted? Yeah, you know That's really just a thing you don't put in stories anymore. No, and I think it's great here actually Tim is not some sort of you know unstoppable hero I think the sheriff that's a little bit of that going on, but Tim is always afraid in this story in this episode for sure In any case he gets found in the swamp by local The local brings him home and goes to fetch the sheriff, who's our other more important character, Sheriff Brockner. They have actually prod Tim into telling his story, and the sheriff I think we noticed right away is suspicious. However, when Tim describes where he came from, he very clearly says, which clearly scares Howard, the guy who found him. Howard's not going to be a run-long, so don't worry about him. Look, though, he scares him in his wife. Tim tells his story about his friend trying to kill him. And the sheriff goes, well, we're gonna have to go back up there. Howard, who's the local, grab your shotgun and let's go. He's basically creating a posse on the spot. Howard looks at him, turns and sprints out the door into the swamp by himself. I love that. Yeah. So we get the sense that the blazenville plantation is bad news. And so there's probably history to this place. So the sheriff and Tim head back. uh... the sheriff gives us the background i think i'm just going to tell you the story right of this play of the of the plantation it comes out it's sort of gets drawn out throughout the show yet it's a little bit later technically when the big info dump comes but why don't you tell us the the back story the plantation now correct so apparently this was the home of three sisters and the woman in the portrait was one of those sisters And apparently, all of the sisters left or moved away, nobody really knows what's happened to them, but one, who live there for a long time. uh... eventually she disappeared as well in the place was abandoned and the other thing you learned is that there were two servants who lived with them after the war they were from barbedo's there was Jacob who will come up later and there was what is her name you will lead and there was you will lead and we don't know too much about them right now but this is the situation is that something drove these this family from this place and we know that they were cruel to their servants Yeah, and isn't it suggested that, you know, most everybody else except the sisters and these two servants fled for time except one, but yes, so they get there in the sheriff really doubts. Tim's story. It's clear at this point that the sheriff is like, Oh, so your friend is dead here because he tried to kill you because he was he was a zombie. And I'm supposed to believe that like yeah, the sheriff doesn't believe the sheriff is by at all. However, They're here and they decide they've got to investigate now when they get there. There's no pigeons at all because no, Tim has been babbling about all the pigeon. Yeah, and then when they get there gone, now I also want to say earlier when when they first settled down in the living room back when it was just Tim and before John was a zombie, they did hear the pigeon sounds and those are going to come back later. So thank you for reminding me about that. But Now, one thing about this southern sheriff that's so land believable, his gun is like a pea shooter, like he's like a 38 special or something. I kind of hoped he would have like a classic Texas revolver, but a last, you know. However, they do decide they are going to poke around and go upstairs. The sheriff has a carousine lantern. He's going to let Tim go with him because Tim doesn't He says, don't you think of trying anything? I shoot faster than a cat could jump. Haha, yes. So they go up to a room. There's a room at the end of the hall. And it's, and so they go in there is very tense. They're creeping through the darkness, the sheriff, Buckner is holding up his lantern. They go into this room, and they find what looks like an abandoned bedroom. There's a, there's a bunch of stuff there. But in that room, there's another room. And as soon as they approach it, what happens to the sheriff's carousene lantern? Yeah, it goes out. And he shakes it and says, wait, there's plenty of carousene in here. and they suddenly agree like, okay. Like, like, for a change, we have people in a horror movie. They're like, okay, let's get out of here. Let's go. Let's back off in regroup, right? Yes. Oh, and they did find up there at the top of the stairs. They did find the spot. A big splotch of blood. Yes. We're Johnny had been killed. And that's where the the sheriff is like, you know, doesn't believe that someone who is hit hard enough to splash this and splutter around does not believe that that person could have been up and threatened. Exactly. And then he has the bit with the room where the lantern goes out. It's still night. So they flee downstairs and what happens when they hit the bottom of the stairs? Well, the lantern comes back up. So it's a really localized, like, uh, darkness. Yes. So here's what they decide to do. They decide to blow Johnny in the sheriff's station wagon. Yeah, which is a 1939 mercury. Anyway, it's a woody, as they say. This is where we really get the info dump on the story and that they've all fled 50 years ago. We hear that one of the servants who they were cruel to Jacob survived. And he's going to become important in a little bit. They do go back up during the day. However, they realize there is a piano up there. And there's no dust on the keys as if someone has been playing it. That was a good touch. They also decide not to go into the room again because of the lantern issue. But they do find in that room a diary of Elizabeth Blazenville. Dust on all of everything, tons of it. Nothing on this keyboard. It's as though somebody plays it. Maybe somebody does. What's that? Looks like a diary. Very fine writing, can you make it out? I can sense someone prowling about the house at night after the sun has set and the pines outside of black. And it mentions Jacob in this journal. So this is when they're about to open the door again, but the land goes out. So the sheriff decides, let's regroup again. we're on to I think we're solving the mystery of what happened to the blaze andville sisters. Let's go talk to Jacob. He's actually still alive. Yeah. Yeah. So can I say at this point, I got kind of the whole diary bit. I got a little confused about what was going on in the backstory is the idea that the last stalking around yes house is that the idea I said I think when she says is that Jacob knows something but he won't talk about it okay yeah all right that makes sense and yes yes um so they go to Jacob he lives in a shack in the middle of the swamp he's 97 years old and the boy before sheriff buss into his house he's like Jacob wake up the guys having a nap Yeah. And if you were thinking, as you've sort of been hinted that maybe you should that Jacob is the one stalking around killing people when you see how old and feeble is, you realize that that can't be the whole. That can't be the case. So they wake Jacob up and they start to make him talk. This is a great scene. Jacob is great. The sheriff is great. So Jacob tells them about, uh, what is your name again? You literally, you literally. And he But then he says, I can't tell you. And they're like, why? Here's a clip of what he says. Jacob, it is you and Lee, and that house, isn't it? Hmm, life is sweet to an old man. And then he says this line about the big serpent is going to send one of his little brothers if I talk. So he does decide to talk, however, and he says that he is actually a voodoo practitioner. And many years ago, Ula Lee came to him and said, give me that potion that turns people into zombies. And so the question is, who got turned into a zombie? Was it the old sister? And he says, and the zombies are evil, and they just want to kill people. And he's very superstitious. He sort of freaks out, and then, and there's like, it can't say anymore. He goes to throw some wood on the fire from the wood pounded his house and what happens. He gets bitten by a snake. Yes, there's a coral snake in the wood pile. He screams, he gets bitten. The sheriff, you don't see it, but the sheriff beats it to death with a piezo log from the fire and he dies instantly. Yeah. So I think we can safely say at this point, the sheriff no longer suspects Tim. Yes. So let's pause here because we have some more zombie stuff. Yes. So all right. So what we learn in the scene is that Jacob is has the knowledge to create zombies or specifically what he calls zoovambies. Zoovambies. Yes. Which I think are just female zombies. Is that right? Yes. So, this is interesting. I haven't done any research into whether or not this is a real concept or not, but we have not, and all of the movies we've watched seen any sort of like gender differentiation between male and female zombies. So, I'm kind of intrigued by the idea that a female zombie might be a distinct thing from a regular zombie in the way that a lot of cultures cast like female ghosts as a distinct thing like a banshee versus a ghost. Yes, exactly. So he calls them zoovembs and what he says and am I getting this right, John? Eula Lee came to him. Remember Eula Lee was like this supposed servant sort of in the house and she came to him and demanded from him the secret of make how to make zoovembs, right? Yes and he reveals that this is the piece of information that got him bit. that Ula Lee was not a servant in the house. In fact, she was the half-sister of the other three women. And they were cool to her. They had the same mother, but Ula Lee's father was another servant. What they don't say here is there's a racial component to the relationship, right? In that Ula Lee is half African-American and the sister's presenter for it. And so this is all taking place about 50 years after the Civil War. And so I think this would have been, you know, sort of a something you probably didn't talk about a lot, but that probably happened a lot, which is the presence of children of a slave and one of the white people in the house. Yeah. And I mean, Thomas Jefferson famously had several children. Yeah, so this would have, you know, been a source of in the society the time this would have been a source of shame and horror and, you know, one thing you might do is treat the, you know, treat the child of this liaison with a servant or a slave as not a full member of the exact exactly exactly. to be cruel to them. And this story really is about the cruelty that people can inflict on others in a way. And especially, you know, it just has a racial component. You can't avoid. So this Howard story, though his has a more interesting twist and we'll get to that. One other, we do get one interesting little bit here that I think is unique in our zombie movie so far. And that is before he dies, Jacob reveals that only lead bullets can kill all to which I said I thought all bullets I thought they were led with brass casings but maybe that's not the case maybe that's old bullets I don't actually know well it harkens back to in some of our earliest zombie movies where zombies sometimes could be dealt with what with what you might call like fairy tale bane yes there was salt right one yeah like so salt or cold iron or cold steel or whatever yeah uh this sort of fairy tale kind of and you know a a weapon or an item or something like that that could negate or destroy an otherwise invulnerable creature. Yes exactly. So the sheriff, I love the sheriff in this scene as they're leaving because they decide, you know, they got to do something with Jacob's body. But Tim's like, well, what about what he said? And the sheriff becomes angry. He's like, that superstition is nonsense. And he does a great job of sort of Yes, I really like the sheriff's promise here. I think he has been really spooked by all the supernatural stuff and he's trying to make a show of not believing it, but I think he knows that he's in way over his head. Yes, and as if to prove the point when they head back out to his car, it's covered in pigeons who are all cooling at him. So one thing that the story explains much better than the show. The show sort of stops on this. The pigeons are going to come back and will hear their sound again. But it is more clear from the Howard story that the pigeons are sort of the spirits not only of the sisters, but of every family member who's lived here, who sort of are bound to this place to these pigeons, and they become vengeful at night, and that's why Johnny got attacked at the beginning. and that's why they're the pigeons from hell. If we explain the rest of this episode without talking about that, you'd be like, why are the pigeons so important? But that's the sort of position they're in in Howard's story. They're literally possessed by spirits of people who died and went to hell. So that's very cool and also, yeah, kind of absent from this kind of episode. Now here's what do they decide to do? They decide to sleep over again. Yeah, I don't know what this is like the third or fourth time people have regrouped back in the most haunted mansion ever yes, but here we are again here we are over there now this is actually great. Yeah, the the sheriff Buckner says, all right, Tim, you sleep because what they've decided to do is they're going to solve this case and the sheriff sure. that that the woman is actually Ula Lee and she's 50 she's just like 90 years old that was 50 years ago and she's lived here the whole time and he's going to prove it right so he says Tim you sleep I'm just going to sit up in this chair keep watch and then when it gets dark we're going to we're going to head up there and settle this once and for all because he's he and we see a scene of him loading his gun with presumably what our special lead bullets yeah However, Tim wakes up, and what does he see? Well, he sees that the sheriff is gone. Yes, no, all by himself. Yeah, now in the story, Tim's nightmares are articulated, and in this one, it is a nightmare of the three sisters, and he sees a vision of them hanging from a rafter. But that's not in this version. So, you should have put that in this. I know, I know. If that was probably a little too gruesome for them. So, Tim, much, much scarier than before, heads up to the top of the stairs. So I like this part because like you were saying before, this is a show where a story where the the protagonist of a horror story make a sensible decision. Yes. So he starts going upstairs. I'll look for the sheriff and then he's like, nope. Nope. Not going to do this. And he he walks back down. Yeah. But then he hears that Yes, and we should note that when the he first went to sleep we distinctly heard the pigeons very strongly like he didn't hear the pigeons before only Johnny heard them, but now he hears them too. However, there's a twist. we think I thought that Sheriff Brockner had had the whammy put on him and when he went up there, we got zombie Brockner, and it's going to be a disaster. However, that's not what happens. We see this led-very hand from, like, come out from this doorway and we see this old woman look at him. And now he's in a trance walking slowly down the hallway and she comes out and she lifts a giant gunshots, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, and she screams and flees, Sheriff Brock Buckner had basically left and hid to use Tim as bait to get this woman. They go running into the room that they hadn't gone in before. And what do they see first, Andy? Well, first, they come across three skeletons. Yes, three skeletons of women still dressed in finer. Seven finer, yep. Who are the sisters? Obviously, the three sisters. Yep. And then they explore a little further, and they find, well, I guess, why don't you reveal what they put? They find Julie Lee, and she's finally dead. And she is the old lady that shocked them with a cleat. And she's the old lady who attacked him with the cleaver. And that is the end of the episode, Mystery Self. Now, there's one crucial thing that is different that I wanted to share here. So in this version of the story, you literally turns yourself into a zombie to take vengeance on these sisters because she wants to the power of being an undead to kill them, essentially. in the story, it's a little more sinister than that. She was a servant who's horribly tormented by these women. Okay. So in her name, the same character, Yulalee is named Joan, and she's the servant who gets horribly tortured. She does go to Jacob and say, you give me that potion to turn people into zombies. but she doesn't take it. She puts it in one of the sister's food. And so her vengeance is to turn her cruel master into a monster who then kills her own sisters. And that's the twist that people were disappointed is not in this episode. Oh, okay. That's quite a bit cooler than the TV adaptations version. Yeah, so that's Pigeons from Hell. From the show Thriller, 1961, what do you think of this Andy? So I went into this not expecting much. Yeah, to be honest, I'd never heard of the show Thriller. I hadn't either, isn't that weird? I guess, if you're less than 100 episodes. You don't get syndication, right? This is the old rule is if you get syndication because then they can just show it nonstop over and over again. I don't know that the toilets don't have 100. I'd have to look it up. But 67 episodes, they just like, quite didn't have enough. And I was looking at the pages in episode with William Shattner, like I feel like this could have been a show we remember like the Twilight Zone, and it just wasn't. interesting. Yeah, so yeah, and this was a time like the Twilight Zone adapted a lot of short stories to be. It's more famous episodes. Yeah, I mean it makes me want to dig through other episodes of Thriller to see if there's any like kind of hidden gems in there because this was I would call this a hidden gem. I never heard of it. I had heard of this story by Howard. I'd never read it. But you know, this is exactly the sort of story that works well, it's like an adaptation for a one hour TV show. Yeah, exactly. It's sort of a novella. You know, it's probably 90 pages, maybe 80 pages. It's worth reading. This show is worth this episode, at least is worth watching. I just watched it on YouTube. So you could find it if you wanted to for a modern horror fan that wants something a little more fast-paced It's it is it is sort of like bunny lake is missing. It is intentionally slow and deliberate. However again in this story it works Right? Yeah. There is a jump scare at the beginning and that set piece is awesome. And then it just sort of becomes this creepy solve the mystery kind of story. So yeah. All right, Andy, let's do. Let's not do all their questions. Why don't you lead us? Why don't you just choose the ones you think are are good to ask here. Yeah, this isn't a movie, so we won't go through the usual questions we go through, but I do, let's just talk about the zombie as it appears. Yeah, pigeon from hell. So what kind of a zombie, what strain of zombie are we dealing with? And here's a additional question. What movies have we seen that this portrayal of the zombie that seem most close to this portrayal of a zombie? Yeah, so I don't want it immediately. So these zombies are created by a curse by revenge and then a curse. that creates these zombies. So when John is there's a physical component, right? I mean, it's like a potion. It's definitely voodoo, right? They say he's from Barbados, but they say zombie. I don't know that they use the word voodoo, but all of that is suggested. Right. Yeah, absolutely. However, there's also a cursed tie-up here, which I think is important. And that's why it reminded me of zombies and more it's how, because it's cursed based. But in terms of the zombie itself, what did that actually not either Johnny, who became a zombie, or the first, you're the lead, the woman who became a zombie that started the whole curse? Yes. What did you think? Like, what would you say is different about that than say zombies and more it's how? Well, um, so there is a process. There is a zombification process. Right. It's not something that just happens naturally or just because of a curse. That's right. Like there's a, it's mystical, but it involves, I think the creation of like a physical component to it. Yeah, and I hate to say it, but it's kind of like a white zombie. What was the one? the Jennifer Gray one, oh yeah, ritual, ritual, which was based on, was that based on I walked with a zombie? It was, yeah. So there's that sort of component where the zombie is sort of created, but it also has that curse element too. So I think there's a lot going on here. So just to clarify here, you will lead as sort of our core zombie or Zubimdi. Yep. She is created. She was created by like a voodoo process. Correct. People she kills seem to rise back spontaneously as zombies. Yes. Again, it has that feel of like almost contagion, but I think it's like a curse at work. Yeah, it feels like a zombie master who can dispense a curse kind of. Yes. And they just become murderous mindless atonement. Right. Yes. So, yeah, is there anything new? Are there any zombie firsts here? And I want to call out, I don't think we have heard the term zoo Vemby before, so I want to call that. I want to call this out as the first, like, quote, gendered zombie. Yes, if you will, zombies in the films we've watched, zombies have been mostly, but not entirely men. And there is, and the word zombie could refer equally to a man or a woman who's undergone whatever the zombification process of the movie is. This is the first time we've had the females zombie split out. And I think that's pretty fascinating. I thought it was fascinating too. I would like to say this isn't a first. I don't know that this is a first, but in 1961, here we're having somebody who is killed. an immediately returning as a as a bloodthirsty cannibalist exambie. Yeah, which we cut. I don't feel like we saw that in any of the movies around this time. So it might be a first. It's certainly early for that to be happening. I think in the 50s we had, let's see, when was when was more a towel was that it was 50 to six I believe okay so we do have this idea that zombies could with some effort make additional zombies but it this has a sort of immediacy to it like a speed to it that like there is a sense that like you know shortly after he was killed by the zoo vambi Johnny rises again as a zombie and that it just has a sort of immediate terror to it that I don't The violence, I mean, there's no real onscreen violence here exactly, but there's just a little bit more intensity to this than I expected from 1961, you know, holding a bloody hatchet. A blood covered guy with a wound on his head holding a bloody hatchet. I would call that gnarly. I was delighted by. the sort of the sort of terror of that scene and how intense it was. And the sort of quality of the show overall, like it's not, it's not gonna win an Emmy, but like I was drawn in, I was compelled to watch it with a lot of focus. You know, I thought it was good. Agreed. All right. So John, let's close out with the three traditional closing questions we have. Yeah. Would you, John and me and he survive in the zombie world of pigeons from hell? Why or why not? Can I pitch to why neither of us would survive? Yes. Even though you go by Andy, your first name is also John and the guy who gets killed in this movie is John and I'm John. So I think John's just can't survive in this situation. So here's why I would, so the fatal decision that dooms these people is the decision not to like sleep in their car. No, but to pick up camp in the hunting. Yeah. I would never do that. Yeah. See, I, I, I find, so decrepit old plantations, like that is like catnip to me as far as I was cool location to explore. Yeah. I think I would be the idiot in assisting that we camp out in the clearly haunted plantations. So we're saying here's you might get me killed. Yes, and then you would be the one being like, come on, what are we doing here and then you would fall victim to it? Yes. John is this a movie or let's say is this a TV is this a zombie TV show or is this a TV show that happens to have some zombies I think the zombie creation is essential to this story so I would say it's a zombie TV show. If it's something other than a zombie it is just changes the tenor of the story to a difference. I agree, and this is sort of part of that 60s revival where the 1930s sort of classic Voodoo style zombies are making a comeback, even though other parts of the horror genre are different weird things are happening with them. Absolutely. All right. And then our final question, John. John, do you recommend the TV episode pigeons from hell? Firstly, do you recommend it to a general audience? Is this something that everyone should take time out of the life to check out? And secondly, do you specifically recommend it to our zombie-loving listeners as something that really has something special for zombie fans? I would say yes to our zombie listeners, the zombie watchers. I think it really does have something special. It's early, it's kind of gruesome, and it's genuinely scary at points. So I would say yes, and for those same reasons, I would recommend it to pretty much anyone to watch. If you like older TV or just nice solid yarns, like I enjoyed it, and I would recommend other people watching. I agree. I think I'd give it a pretty soft recommendation to a general audience just because it is pretty slow by modern standards. And so you do have to sort of have patients. If you have been watching some of the other stuff from this era, you you buy default have the patients required to watch this. And but definitely I give it a strong recommendation to zombie fans again for me not to keep arping on it. I really I find the zoo Vemby really interesting as a concept and I'm curious why it it kind of seems to have not gone anywhere. Yes. The zombie Yeah, I am too. So, all right, that's a wrap on pigeons from hell. Recommend recommendations all around some some little lighter than others. However, Andy, we're not done yet. We are originally going to do an episode where we talked about two episodes of TV, but we, both enjoyed. The episode we were assigned so much that I turned pigeons from hell into a full episode, and we're going to a full episode on another piece of TV. What is that, Andy? Yeah, so I, yeah, originally I thought, yeah, we'll just do one episode of zombie strands here and we'll squeeze into TV shows, but both of the TV shows we watched were like, okay, there's a lot to unpack here. So what we are going to take a trip to the maybe somewhat unexpected world of the Avengers. Yes, not a few Marvels Avengers. But not Marvel's Avengers, there's no Thanos here, no no stepping, and disintegrating half the universe or whatever. No, this is the British spy show from the 60s, very, very influential. And, you know, having, having dipped my toes into it in preparation for a coming episode, I got to say, if like, I have never seen something more 1960s than this show, like never in my life. I feel like that's what this is one of the core influences on like Austin Powers. Oh, yes. I had that specific that while I was watching will unpack and we get to it. But I was like, I think Austin Powers might have been making fun of this show, not James Bond. Yes. Um, so anyway, they get into all sorts of adventures, but at least once they cross paths with the walking dead and so John and I are going to. See what happens when John Steed and Emma Peel across paths with zombies. Alright, looking forward to it.

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