Are you troubled by strange noises in the middle of the night?

Do you experience feelings of dread in your basement or attic?

Have you or any of your family ever seen a spook, specter, or ghost?

If the answer is yes, then don't wait another minute. Pick up your phone and call the professionals. Ghostbusters! Our courteous and efficient staff is on call 24 hours a day to serve all your supernatural elimination needs.

We're ready to believe you!

You know, that commercial launched a franchise, a dynasty, a cultural phenomenon. I mean, and also, well, have you noticed how, like, you can tell someone's a good actor by how well they can act badly?

Yeah, it's a skill. It's a skill.

I think Bill Murray really kills it here. Like he's really, and Ramis also, they're really bad in this commercial. I love it.

They are such a feast through this whole film. They are clearly having the time of their lives, but are able to sell something so preposterous with such specificity of character and personality that it's just dazzling to behold. I haven't seen this movie in ages, and it's better than I remembered.

Really?

Yeah.

Oh, wow. Okay. This is going to be an interesting conversation because I have some very, very interesting ideas about this film.

Oh, me too.

So Paul, off of that, I think that we can only say, I'm Javier Grillo-Marxuach.

And I'm, there is no Paul Alvarado-Dykstra. There is only Zool.

And this is.

Multiplex Overthruster, Summer of 84.

All right. Now, today's movie is Ghostbusters, a classic 1984 film. Now, before we start talking about it, though, Paul, I just want to say one thing. It's very important. If you are listening to our podcast and you're enjoying it, hit subscribe, tweet us, ex us. No, don't tweet or ex us, cause that platform is owned by a madman. Plug us on Bluesky and any other platforms that are not owned by a madman.

I think that rules them all out.

Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. And review our podcast and subscribe to our podcast and just let the world know that our podcast exists cause we need your support to continue.

Exactly. Thank you though dear listeners who have done those things. And yeah, sharing is caring. So pick a favorite episode, share it with a friend and have them join the Gozerians.

Now Paul, obviously we all have amazing memories. I saw this movie probably six times in the theater.

Oh yeah.

In the summer. I would just go see it every weekend. I love this. I love this film back then. I love it less now, which is interesting. But I mean, I don't feel like being particularly negative or snarky about it, but you know, it was, I had the experience I had watching this film, Paul, was more like, like I opened the jar of peanut butter, you know, like it is, it is a food item. I enjoy.

Chunky style or creamy?

Creamy, always creamy. Yeah, no, I'm not a chunky, chunky style guy. Yeah, no, no, that's heretical to me actually. No, it just, it just, it feels like, like, like, like, like something I've worn a lot, like a garment I've worn a lot. There's not a lot of novelty to it. I didn't find myself laughing out loud at the movie a lot, but I know every line in it. You know, it just feels like a hang that I've had many, many times. You know what I'm saying?

It is like a, like a cozy, comfy genre blanket.

Yeah.

And if you're not a woman. Well, yes. Yes, we have plenty to talk about, but for the time, it's such a nostalgia trip because one of the things that strikes me is that so many of these films from this period are so 80s. And this definitely has 80s-ness in it. Yes. But there's a lot of this film that feels fairly timeless. It really does.

It does. Yeah. It does. It does.

And I also, having not seen it forever, after seeing it unimaginable number of times in my, in my youth, this movie was such a huge deal in 84.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You can get away from the Ghostbusters in 84.

Like, we all knew Return of the Jedi was going to be a really big deal when it came. Yes. And kind of took over. But when this kind of came out by surprise and became a phenomenon that no one really saw coming or could have imagined, because there was really no precedent for this film.

No.

And I have, we'll get to it later, probably, but I have thoughts about looking at it now. I perceive its genre classification differently than I did.

Is that right?

Yes.

Wow. Okay. Well, then we got to get to that. So look, so let's just say that this film, Ghostbusters, for those of you who don't know, is the story of three research scientists of varying degrees of competence, who find themselves fired from the university, but in a shocking coincidence, their parapsychological investigations have come to fruition at that exact moment, when they track a ghost in the New York Public Library. From that encounter, they develop an entire ghost combat and containment system. They basically open up, they set up a shingle, they become the Ghostbusters, and while they're doing that, it just so happens that a major, major supernatural thing is happening in the city. So you get a confluence of the Ghostbusters and a major supernatural conflagration at the end of the film. And of course, involved in the supernatural conflagration are Rick Moranis and Sigourney Weaver as Louis Tully and Dana Barrett, who live in the building where the entire, which is basically the antenna for the supernatural conflagration. The Ghostbusters appear at the end, save the day, and get the variety of the girl, the glory, the scientific achievement, all of that stuff. And that's kind of the movie.

Yeah.

Should I try that again?

No, no, no. That was good. There are layers. I'm looking forward to pile on top of it and also excavate beneath that. But that sets the table, I think, perfectly.

All right. Well, let's go to the bell and start talking about Ghostbusters. Let's do it.

Ding, ding.

All right. So, Paul.

So, Javi.

Ghostbusters. So, you know, the movie starts with, with, how does it start? It starts with the New York Public Library and some very wonderful Elmer Bernstein music.

Yeah, I definitely, one of the great treats of this film are the heightened classical elements and talents of like Laszlo Kovacs as the DP. Yes, absolutely. This movie is beautifully shot. Really?

Well, yeah, it's beautifully produced.

Yeah, the whole production is on a scale that you think, how did they get this for this crazy idea that should be on the surface by any kind of cursory reading of a pitch, a B movie at best. But it's produced at such a high level. And to have Elmer frickin Bernstein do the score, and it's such a new style from Bernstein that is iconic and contemporary for that time, but yet rooted in his talents. And it is such, I think, an important element of how delightful this film is.

It's interesting that you mention that, because to me, the score sounded very dated, actually. And not that I disliked it, but it sounded very dated to me. And I think a big part of it is how much comedy has changed in the 40 years since this movie came out. Comedy has gone from being this and being sort of very classical. I mean, this still has a lot of Bob Hope and Bing Crosby in it. It's got a lot of Abbott and Costello in it. This movie, the style of comedy this movie is working from is from the 30s and 40s. And I feel like it's almost a last gasp of that. And then you get into the 2000s and you get into The Office and Cringe and all of that stuff. It's a very different school of comedy than I think that people growing up after us are used to seeing.

Yeah, and we'll get into the cold open, but I think this is just a good time to then talk about the balancing act, a high wire balancing act of genre and tone that I think this film pulls off.

Yes, quite well.

Which is maybe it's best achievement and the most challenging thing because again, at this point and at this time, no one had ever seen this type of movie. We've seen things it evokes and it's hard getting back to, but not in this combination.

Well, and there was even like a Saturday morning TV show called Ghostbusters, which was like a Sid and Marty Croft show, and it was like the beest of B entertainment ever. It was kind of like D plus actually, so it's not like, and actually I think that actually Bob Hope was in a movie called Ghostbreakers. So there is a little bit of a tradition of this kind of stuff, but it is very much that sort of B movie. They didn't make $30 million movies about the subject matter. But Paul, doesn't this come out of, look, you've got Dan Aykroyd, you've got Bill Murray. Bill Murray had done Meatballs, he'd done Stripes, right? You've got Dan Aykroyd, who's coming out of SNL and all this other stuff. These guys were sort of rock stars of comedy back then. If you look at the amount of production value that went to Blues Brothers, and Dan Aykroyd would tour as a Blues Brother with Belushi, you're also talking about these guys being major celebrities across different platforms.

Yeah, but Blues Brothers is still a B-movie. Whereas this is a-

Oh yeah, but it's made for like a $5 billion though.

Yeah, but comparatively, the scale and caliber of production here is staggering that you would get this level of studio commitment and resources for a mainstream film that is so essentially weird. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And a swing, because on the one hand, it is a kind of supernatural comedy. And yeah, we've seen various versions of that going back to Abbott, Costello and whoever else. But updated in a really interesting way and clever. But I look at it now and I think this is the first superhero team movie.

Interesting. Do go on. Please unpack this for us a little bit, Paul, if that is your name.

Part of what makes this work, I think, is it is an ensemble.

Yes, absolutely.

But it is a team and they are superheroes. I think it's sort of undeniable. They're leaning more in the Ant-Man comedic tone or Spider-Man, but in the Doctor Strange kind of mystical stuff. But we had not seen a big studio superhero team movie at this point. We'd only really seen Superman in the movie.

Yeah, and I think this movie actually is more like something like Thor Ragnarok. Yes. And Ant-Man again and things like that. But there is that sense of humor to it. And frankly, I think that if you pulled back the characters 20% with Bill Murray's character 40%, you would probably have that Marvel tone and less of this Antic tone, you know? So yeah, absolutely. I totally see what you're saying.

Yeah, but it's startling, and we'll get to it, is that once the aperture of the world building and the mythology opens and you start seeing the degree of special effects unleashed, it's like, oh, wait a minute. This is a superhero movie.

Yeah, it's surprising. It's surprising how big this movie gets. Yes. That's one of the big points of its charm and of its impact. It's just how big the movie goes. By the end of it, it's like the whole city, it's this building, it's like, well, the big surprise we all know about, but we're not going to pretend it.

It's the Avengers at the end, basically. They have to save the city of New York and for Judgment Day.

Galactus shows up. Literally, Galactus shows up. When I saw the Fantastic Four movie, some of the stuff in the Fantastic Four movie that came out last year harkens back to this. It's funny that you're like, Galactus is looking a little state puffed here.

Yeah, a little bit. But anyway, it just struck me that now in this kind of poster, in this new era of the height of Marvel movies and everything, this film has a different context surrounding it.

Absolutely.

I just think it's really interesting. It's just struck me as interesting to view it through that lens. But yeah, we have this great cold open. They take their time to introduce our lead characters.

I was shocked at how at kind of not slow paced, but at how deliberately paced the beginning of this movie is.

Yeah. So we have this whole setting the table sequence in the New York Public Library. The other thing that's so great about the film, and this is a cliche to say New York City is a character in the film. But in this case, it's so rooted in-

Oh, it's very much a New York movie. Yeah. These guys are such New Yorkers in their attitudes and everything. Yeah, totally.

Yes. It's only fails that in terms of diversity. This is a very white movie.

Very white movie, yeah.

Set in New York City in the 80s. We'll touch on that more later.

Or in general. Not even in the 80s. New York City has been very diverse in most of its existence.

Exactly.

But let's talk about the cold open. Because it's such a wonderful scene with this librarian and just sort of how they like. I also love how the movie opens with the Ghostbusters brand logo, with that ghost that looks like it belongs in one of the Harvey cartoons. Didn't get sued for that? Didn't the Casper people actually sue them for the logo? Anyway. But I just like how the movie starts. It's got its own brand. It's got this great logo. We love that logo. And look, I think a huge part of this franchise is just the logo.

And the branding. Yeah. Absolutely. It's such a simple hook, and title, and logo. And this also is an all... I think this is a theme later in the film, too, that is now unexpectedly timely. The film is also very 80s as far as like... The heroes are a private company. They are not the government. It is not an institution, a public institution. The university betrays them and exiles them. And so while they're trying to work within the confines of academia and institutional, like whatever... Yeah.

Let's get to that, because basically we're in the public library. We're following this library, and then like books and things start falling. Like you're getting the sense that there's something supernatural happens, but you don't actually see it.

Yeah.

That they literally... And one of the things I love about this movie...

They tease it beautifully.

Yeah. One of the things I love about this movie is exactly that. It teases it. And literally, it's like they just turn a light on a fan on this woman, and it's a beautiful teaser anyway, you know, like I see. And she sees something. We don't know what it is. And then we cut to...

But the little effects in terms of just little, quietly, methodically...

Like the book falling off the shelf.

Yeah, setting the table, and then the card catalog drawers opening, and the cards flying out. It's just, there's this old style, kind of tactile, like old-fashioned, kind of haunting, but with a delight, with a fun to it.

And look, as technologically sophisticated as this movie is, right? I mean, it's John Dykstra doing the effects, right?

Or Richard Edlund.

Oh, it's Edlund, okay, sorry. I get those, I get those. I thought Dykstra was the one who went to Sony, or that he'd go to Warner Brothers to do the Batman movies. Anyway, the point being, the effects are all very modern, especially, you know, for their time, you know, and getting to see the handmaideness of it, though, before they bust out Warp Factor 9, as you're saying, it's just really wonderful, you know?

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they bring the full suite of tools to the table at their disposal at this time. This is a state-of-the-art effects film. Oh, totally, totally. For 1984.

Especially because it wasn't made by ILM, also. Because, you know, like, yeah, I mean, it also has, one of the things that I always talk about with these movies from the 80s is, you know, different VFX houses had different looks to them.

Yeah.

You know, and nowadays, you know, a VFX, and we're, like, still in the first scene of this movie, Paul, we gotta, I'm so sorry. But, you know, nowadays, you know, like, basically, if you're making this movie nowadays, you would farm out the VFX shots to 20 different vendors, you know, whereas back then, like, you know, this movie was basically, Edlund was the guy, and his team did this, or ILM did it, or, you know, any number of companies would do it, you know, DreamQuest would do your show, or EEG would do your show, or any one of these, you know, and they all had a very unique and specific look. So VFX didn't, like nowadays, the thing is to homogenize VFX, because you have 20 companies doing one movie, but back then, you basically had one company doing one movie, and the movie and everything looked a lot more sort of unified, but also like unique to it, which I think is interesting.

Yeah, and for a while, you know, with Star Wars coming out, I mean, setting aside 2001, earlier, there was kind of a one shop town, as far as like where you could go to do stuff, stuff like this on the scale. But then in the wake of those films, other entities sprouted up and kind of spun off. And then, yeah, then it allowed movies that were not essentially sci-fi movies to adopt and incorporate these very advanced cutting edge, high tech, for the time, visual effects that again, had not been deployed in a, essentially a comedy before, or a rom-com.

And it's very much like on the same level as like Stripes, you know, which, you know, Stripes was, you know, they go in this assault vehicle into Eastern Europe. You know, so it's not like these Akroyd, Belushi, you know, Bill Murray comedies, they're all very antique and they all have like huge amounts of destruction. You look at the end of Animal House, right? Like, destruction is a big part of this school of comedy. And this is the movie that just cranks it up like the biggest possible war factor of it, you know?

And it's destruction of real physical things, not computer generated. But yes, not to jump too far ahead, but the card catalog?

Mm-hmm.

Did you have anxiety watching thousands and thousands of cards fly in the room and then realize someone has to clean it up if they do another take?

Yeah, yeah, to reset that shot. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, and then when we get to the ballroom, there are all these things where it's like, oh yeah, you have to know what you're doing to plan this well, because you're making such a mess.

But on the other hand, it was probably easier to do it that way than to do it on the computer. I mean, that's the thing is that, now Paul, the next scene, so we scared a librarian, and then the next scene, this movie just jumps into the problematic nature of Peter Venkman, like right from Jump Street.

Yes.

The movie then cuts to Peter Venkman, who is running an experiment into ESP, and he is studying the effect of negative reinforcement on ESP. Basically, he's testing two kids with Zenner cards, which are those, you know, the cards with the squiggly lines, the square there, and he's giving electric shocks to them if they get the card wrong, but he's clearly favoring the female student and hitting on her egregiously, and torturing the male student.

Wow. Yes. No, we meet, we meet Bill Murray's-

The hero, the hero of our film.

Yeah, character in the most problematic way, and it is done with a light touch and very tongue-in-cheek and kind of as harmlessly as something this egregious could be done, but it is, yeah, it's something you would not see today for your lead character.

Here's the thing, back then to me and you, Peter Venkman was the man, like we loved Venkman, right? Because Venkman always said the funny thing at the funny time, right? That's kind of his chief character trait is he's always got the snark when, he's the cool guy in the team.

I mean, until Zedmore comes in who's a different dimension of cool. But one of the things that this film does so effectively, I think from a writing standpoint, also clearly from an acting and casting standpoint, and given that two of the actors are the co-writers, that those things are very enmeshed, is how effectively, efficiently each of these characters is distinctly drawn from each other. And the dynamic, particularly among the trio of leads who are established for the first half of the movie is kind of anchoring it. They each have such a very specific personality.

And I think that's one of the things that makes this movie so lovable and such a hang is you do know these guys, like, look, the moment that Venkman says, you know what this reminds me of? This reminds me of the time you were going to drill a hole in his head. And Egon says, that would have worked if you hadn't stopped me.

Yes.

Like, then I know these people so well. I'll just offer that one exchange. That would have worked, comma, if you hadn't stopped me.

Yes.

Yes. There's a lot of things like this in this movie that just make you see that these guys have known each other for decades.

Yes.

They're great friends, and they just have that entire sort of the... I think that the rhythm of this movie is something that would have been very, very hard to duplicate because it's obvious that these guys have been doing comedy for a long time together.

Absolutely. There is a magic to this trio that the obvious only comparison I can make is the Kirk Spock McCoy Trio, where Murray, Peter Venkman, is essentially Kirk. He's the swaggering guy.

Horny?

He's... yes.

Swagger, horny, yep.

He's a little jaded, but he's more cynical. He kind of doesn't buy everything. He's got a little swagger and is having fun with everybody.

But he is the man with the plan. That's the thing is that he does have the plan. Yes, and he... That's how Kirk, Spock and McCoy... Kirk is the guy who's always saying, I got a plan. Yes, yes. So I would imagine, let's follow this. So Ray is McCoy, because Ray is id, he's passion, he's let's do this, guys, let me get my stuff, right? And Egon is Spock. Egon is the super ego, the repressing... Yes. Okay, gotcha.

But it's not that simple. The thing that I love is that it could be just that simple of a of a pair of parallels. But we'll have a clip that demonstrates this, because how we introduce each character, but then we immediately see the contrast between the characters, so that we draw the distinction. So we get immediately Peter Venkman, he's our lead, he's a cat. Okay, he's just a cat. And his experiment is interrupted, because as he's making progress with this fetching student, who he should not be hitting on, in any way, shape or form. And the poor hapless male student, who is just getting tortured.

I love how Venkman keeps torturing him, and like really doing it very sadistically.

Yes, he's sadistic.

And then there's the part where the kid's gum flies out of his mouth, because the electric shock is so. But what I love is how Peter Venkman says, you're getting paid for this, and the kid goes, he goes, you can keep your five bucks. Yeah. Yeah.

And the other thing, the efficiency and economy of jokes and humor in these scenes, but that's all rooted in who these characters are, and the behavior, and how they are wired and wired differently from each other, how they see the world and interact with it differently. So when Ray enters, interrupts.

Head full of steam. Head full of steam. He's so happy to be out.

He is the believer. He's the enthusiast. He is kind of always borderline ecstatic about the possibilities. He's ready to jump in.

He's all in. He's ready to jump in.

He's going to do it.

Yeah, and is a little unhinged. And here is him coming in and setting the table plot-wise as far as like, okay, what's going on?

Peter, at 1:40 PM at the main branch of the New York Public Library on 5th Avenue, ten people witnessed a free-floating, full-torso, vaporous apparition. It blew books off shelves from 20 feet away and scared the socks off some poor librarian.

I'm very excited.

I'm very pleased.

I want you to get right down there, check it out, and get back to me.

No, no, get right back to me. Peter, you're coming with us on this one. Spengler went down there. He took PKE valences, went right off the top of the scale, buried the needle. We're close on this one. I can feel it.

Yeah, so, again, here we have this contrast of these two friends. Right. Peter is clearly annoyed by the interruption from Ray, but has affection for and endearment for him. And his enthusiasm is overflowing, because it's clear that these guys have been toiling in this university basement, doing what we can only presume Peter thinks and assumes is bunk science. He's like along for the ride. This is a paycheck, and it's allowing him to kind of have fun, whereas Ray is a believer.

He's a believer.

This is his life's work, and they finally potentially have a real case, a breakthrough that's going to vindicate them, that's going to validate their work.

An actual supernatural occurrence has taken place, yes.

Exactly, exactly. And it's like, we'll see as far as Peter's concerned. And then the springboards then us into the library, where we had the cold open, and they meet up with Egon Spentler, who is just-

I love Egon. Egon is my favorite character. Look, after 40 years, I got to say Egon really pops as my favorite character. He's the only one that I don't have serious concerns about morally, so I like him for that reason. But I also think he's kind of like the most lovable of them, even though he's so like... There's just something very... I love his matter of factness. I love his sort of aspergery kind of bearing, but you also get the sense that Egon is the only decent one out of them in terms of as a human being.

He is pretty much, I think... I'm trying to think of another better example, and I don't know that there really is one, but I think Harold Ramis in this role is the platonic ideal of the scientific hero nerd, who is just this straight arrow man of science, who is unflappable, who is clear-eyed, but is driven by curiosity, by investigation, but yet is also a man of faith in terms of protocol, in terms of scientific method?

He's also very tolerant of his friends. I think he understands that these are the only people who would let him do the kind of science he does. So he's very tolerant of Venkman and of Reitman, kind of like how, well, just not competent they can be.

Yeah, and they all demonstrate a degree of high intelligence to the film, but it's clear that Egon is the big brain.

Egon by far is the guy. Egon is the idea guy. So now we get to that. Now, of course, now we find the librarian who saw the ghost, and of course Venkman proceeds to sexually harass her, horribly, which just seems to be what he does in every scene of this movie, by asking her pointed questions like whether she's menstruating, which is like, oh boy.

Yes, and when he's challenged by that, by a member of the library staff, he gives one of his many iconic retorts, back off, man, I'm a scientist. Which again, you can just tell that the reason he has chosen this vocation is that he feels that gives him license and cover...

To just be the world's biggest asshole wherever he goes.

To get away with stuff he could not get away with in probably...

In the 21st century.

In probably any other occupation. And he has carved out a space for himself to thrive.

But that's kind of true of all three of them. And I think that's what this movie sets up in such a short period of time is that the only way any of these guys could survive in any environment is with each other.

Yes.

They are obviously close friends. They have the shorthand. They've got all of this stuff. And literally, like within 15 minutes into the movie, they lose everything. You know, because they get, because they will get there. But it's like everything these guys need and have and the safety of their lives is established very economically in this film in a way that I think is very admirable from a writing standpoint.

Yes. And we're along for the ride shoulder to shoulder with them as they have their first encounter. And this is really interesting in contrast and while also echoing films we've seen like Close Encounters, like Poltergeist in particular, and this but this is with a fresh twist. And there's some real comedy because they've been so fixated on, is the paranormal, the supernatural real? They have not planned or thought beyond that point of, okay, what do we do if and when we encounter it?

Exactly.

They have no plan.

What is, that is, look, these guys, these guys are interesting. They're kind of scummy. They're kind of low rent. They have, their morals are fluid a lot of the time. They smoke through most of the movie. All of them smoke, except for Egon.

Egon does not.

Egon does not smoke, but Ray, Peter and Winston all smoke, which is kind of interesting. There's a real blue collar quality to these guys. It's funny that they wind up setting up in a firehouse, because to me, they always read more like firefighters than they do scientists, especially once they become the Ghostbusters. They really do have much more of that kind of rough quality to them. Now, they go into the bowels of the library where we met the ghost, and well, we have our first encounter, right?

Yeah.

And do we have a clip?

Talk about telekinetic activity.

Look at this mess.

Raymond, look at this.

Hectoplasmic residue.

Venkman, get a sample of this.

It's the real thing. When somebody blows their nose and you want to keep it.

I'd like to analyze it.

There's more over here.

I'm getting stronger readings here.

Oh.

This way.

And again, the efficiency in this scene, that every one of their voices is distinctive as a character in terms of how they're reacting and responding to the situation and their performance is their behavior. You have Ray that is just like overwhelmed with enthusiasm and excitement.

So excited.

And Egon, who is clinical. He is analytical. He's calculating. He's assessing everything scientifically. And Peter is just looking for an angle. Grossed out.

He's always looking for the angle.

He thinks this is funny. It's kind of ridiculous, but also gross. He, it's such a perfect balance.

He's kind of, you know, the thing about Venkman is he's kind of always just sort of along for the ride until he has whatever the big idea is, you know?

Yeah.

And, and he's never, he doesn't take anything seriously.

Yeah.

And he's just sort of like hanging out, you know, he's just sort of the hanger on. I mean, he doesn't have any discernible skills, certainly.

Yeah.

Other than that, he's able to corral the other two and kind of bring, you know, because what winds up happening in the scene is, of course, they encounter the ghost.

Yes.

Right.

Specifically, a full torso apparition.

A full torso apparition, a free-floating vapor. And what's really interesting about it is, you know, so like Ray tries to talk to the ghost, fails.

Well, first, like, they don't know what to do. Yeah.

Because they don't know.

Yes. And this will happen more than once in the film. Peter then eggs on Ray to then take point and go.

Peter is constantly using Ray as a human shield. That's a thing in this movie.

Yes. Yes. Yeah. Peter first tries talking to the ghost, gets nowhere, and is just like, what do we do, guys? You're supposed to be the experts, the smart ones. And then finally just eggs on, you know, Ray. Yeah. And Ray's approach is insane. Get her. Yeah. He's just like, get her. He's going to attack her, like, charge her.

And I love how the ghost goes full spook on them, you know, like, and literally gives them the large march head.

Yes.

You know, and they run away screaming in the library and it's like, what's going on? And they're like, we'll get back to you.

Yeah.

And I love how later, like, they're just sitting outside the library and Venkman's like, that was your plan?

Get her. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But again, so now they've crossed this threshold. Like, they have existed in this world of possibility, of hypothetical, of maybe. Now, their hypothesis has been proven. And it's like, holy shit, they're the only ones who now really kind of know this and can process it. And they're struck with the idea, actually, after they flee, Ivan is struck with the idea of, oh, I think there's a way to capture the ghosts and secure them indefinitely.

Well, it's interesting that that should be the thing that comes up in this, because, you know, like, what happens when they go to the university, and when they get back to the university, Dean Yeager of the, Dean Yeager is there with a team of lead people who are, like, literally taking their lab apart and carrying it away. And then Dean gives a speech that is actually, basically tells everything you need to know about these guys. He basically tells Venkman that he doesn't respect science, that his science is a con or a dodge, that he's a poor scientist, and that everybody's getting kicked out of the university. So it's funny because you say the institution betrays them, but actually the institution is acting in a very responsible manner considering who these guys are.

Yes, yes.

I mean, Dean Yeager is right to kick them out.

To be clear, this is all a matter of perspective. So yes, the university, if anything, has been irresponsible in indulging this sub-sub-department of parapsychology program that is clearly like just coloring way outside the lines and should not be sanctioned in any way, shape or form. And we get the clear impression. And again, it's nice that we are not burdened by an excess of backstory, of exposition. It is all just on the go. And that they have been pushing their luck for some time. And it has finally just gotten to the point where the Dean has had it. And it's just ironically at the worst possible moment because they've just finally had a break.

They finally have something to do at the University, right? But that leads to, you know, clip number four, which, you know, our characters kind of begin to formulate a plan.

And to have to now pivot in terms of, OK, without the sanctuary and support and resources of the University and really kind of the shelter from the real world.

Yes.

What do they do?

Yeah.

You know how much a patent clerk earns? No. Personally, I like the University. They gave us money and facilities. We didn't have to produce anything. You've never been out of college. You don't know what it's like out there. I've worked in the private sector. They expect results.

For whatever reason, Ray, call it faith, call it law, call it karma. I believe that everything happens for a reason. I believe that we were destined to get thrown out of this dump.

For what purpose?

To go into business for ourselves.

I mean, is there any more 80s sentiment than that? Capitalism, baby.

You know, it's funny because you don't look at a movie like this as being pretty. Most comedies need a lot of structure. The good ones do. It's not just turn on the camera and hope Melissa McCarthy is 20 today, which is a Ghostbusters was made that way. And well, we all know what happened, OK? This script is so efficient, Paul. It like literally like it tells you there's a supernatural thing happened here. You've got the exact wrong person to meet it. But he's the right person. They meet it. They get they get proof of everything they've ever wanted to prove. They get fired. They decide to go into bit like it's just the in one of the things I talk about when I when I teach screenwriting is inevitability.

Yes.

You want to build inevitability. One scene leads to the next and this is very, very efficient.

Yeah. There is there is not a scene you could cut in this film. It is clockwork. It is just such a well-oiled machine. There is in fact, because it had been a long time since I'd seen it. There's a scene later where I found myself thinking, what is this scene here for? I think the scene could be cut and then something happens. And I'm like, oh, yes, okay. This is why we need to see it, obviously. No, it's marvelous as a piece of architecture.

Yes. Now, what happens next though, is that Venkman convinces Ray to take a third mortgage out on the house he was born in, so they can capitalize to finance this thing. And then they got to find a place to hang their shingle, which so they find a firehouse.

I just… The brilliance of this. Okay, the efficiency. We literally do a smash cut from them. Exile to the University, having this revelation, the pivot, we're going to go into business for ourselves. And do we cut to a whole scene about them having to figure out how they're going to do it, how they're going to get the money, how they're going to talk money out of the bank, much less talk Ray into getting a mortgage on his… No, we cut to them already exiting the bank, already having done it on their way.

And Venkman is saying, don't worry, everybody has a third mortgage, and Egon's got a calculator, and he's going, by the way, here's what, the payments are going to be in the first year, the interest payments in the first year alone.

Yeah, he's so financially screwed. It's not good. And again, like the ruthlessness that this reveals from Peter.

Peter's an asshole.

He's a total asshole. That he would manipulate his friend, because he knows he's the dreamer, he's the guy who's all in on believing it. So he has zero doubt. So I'm going to milk that to finance us, because again, this is free.

But Ray gets, but by the way, at different times, they have different enthousiasms, because if we move on to the next scene where they're looking at the firehouse, right?

Oh, yes.

This is the one where you see Ray's enthousiasms. So let's do clip number five.

What do you think, Egon?

I think this building should be condemned. There's serious metal fatigue in all the load-bearing members. The wiring is substandard. It's completely inadequate for our power needs, and the neighborhood is like a demilitarized zone.

Hey, does this pole still work? Wow, this place is great. When can we move in? You've got to try this pole. I'm going to get my stuff.

I love them so much. How can you not love these guys? They're just such a good hang, but also kind of like messing each other up, stepping on each other.

As long as there isn't a woman involved, these guys are awesome. The entire problem with this movie is just the casual misogyny. But these guys are like, I mean, yeah, of course, you love them. They're great. And weirdly, it's funny, because I would suggest that this movie was written or co-written, but certainly conceived by an autistic person, Dan Aykroyd, who is very open about that, something I'm very concerned about because my daughter is on the spectrum. And frankly, Rey and Egon are totally on the spectrum. Like, there's no way that the, like, I love the imagination, you know, that brought forth, because this movie is like, when you actually think of the mythology, it's this weird, lovecrafty and cosmic horror mythology that postulates the existence of many parallel dimensions and universes, you know. But no, it's, I really love that there's at least two characters in this film who are coded as autistic and who could very easily be interpreted that way. And they're funny, but not in a way that's making sort of fun of who they are, sort of how they relate to the world. I read some of it, I really appreciate it.

Yeah. And it's also that those parts of their personality are what make them exceptional, what make them great and what allow them to succeed and also to succeed together. Because it's in concert that then they're able to cover-

Oh, the three of them make one good person, absolutely.

I wasn't going to say that. But it's about like, again, it's like, it's a great team. It's a great superhero team, is that they all have particular skills and-

Absolutely.

Strengths and talents that they combine. But they don't quite have all the pieces in place yet, that they're still testing themselves or haven't tested themselves yet.

That's what's great about any team is you have that sense of they complete each other.

Yeah. It's also part of the fun, because on the one hand, this is striking a balance between, this is not an origin story for any of these characters. These characters are fully lived in, have full rich lives and backstories that we don't know about, we don't need to know about.

And don't have to know. And don't have to know.

But it is the origin of them becoming this team and of ascending to this different stature and role and function together in the world and in society. And that I just find really, that was something I just find really interesting watching at this time.

Now here's what happened. So we cut Point of View soon after to Dana Barrett, played by the glorious Sigourney Weaver. Paul, can we just stop for, I know that we're like already an hour in, we're two scenes into the movie. It's our usual thing.

There's always time to wax Rapsodic.

Oh my God, Sigourney. I just love her. After she did this movie in Aliens, she went on SNL and literally did a parody of Bertolt Brecht with Christopher Durang, which makes her my idol. By the way, and 2026 is a great year, if only because we finally got to see her pilot in X-Wing in The Mandalorian and Grogu.

Yes.

The best thing in that movie. I just love her and I think she is just smart, and I cannot say enough good things about Sigourney Weaver.

That's all. That's all. I mean, I could spend hours.

Hours.

On Sigourney Weaver.

But how cool is Sigourney in the X-Wing, right?

That was very cool. I just wanted to see a whole movie about her. But as we...

Do you know what my favorite offbeat Sigourney story is?

Do go on.

Did you see the Ron Howard Beatles documentary, Eight Days a Week?

No.

It's comprised mostly of fan footage.

Oh, I have seen this clip.

It has her original eight millimeter from the Hollywood Bowl when she was a young teen watching the Beatles and she's as happy and dancing in the audience. It's glorious. It's really fun.

Teenage Sigourney Weaver at the Beatles concert. It's incredible. It's really incredible. Sigourney Weaver is perfection in this film.

Yes, absolutely.

And she is so clearly, incandescently brilliant, both as a mind, as a creative force, as an actor, and also, I don't know, has ever looked more stunning than she does in this movie.

No, she's just great in this movie.

She's spectacular.

And what I love about her character, one of the things that I really like, look, the writing in this film is really sharp, but it would be very easy for the men to just kind of, like, hoard all of the glory for themselves in this movie. But Dana is smart.

Yes.

She doesn't take any of Peter's bullshit, which is phenomenal, you know?

And at this point, if I remember correctly, this was kind of a swing, a surprise, a casting for her to go into comedy, because I don't think she had done that yet. I want to say Working Girl hadn't happened yet.

No, no, no, no, Working Girl was much later.

Yes, it was much later. So she had, she was perceived a certain way, certainly indelibly since Alien. And, but this was this opportunity for her.

Because she's done, like, after Alien, she did, like, Eyewitness, You're a Woman, Game Grinch, Yeah, she's been doing serious drama. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

As a, as a highly-

And Deal of the Century.

Oh, well, that was, that was only allegedly a comedy. Yeah.

But here she is thrown into the mix with the, some of the reigning superstars in film comedy.

Yeah.

And reveals herself to be an impeccably brilliant comedic actor.

Absolutely.

Absolutely. And it is very, that's one of the exciting things about this film, because it changed people's perception of her. And, but again, you know, as big a star as she is, and as many luminous chapters that, that she's had since then, and having kind of swept into every imaginable franchise as the queen that she is, I still feel she has been underutilized to her, her potential talents, certainly, I think, for comedy. There's still time. There's still time. But there's still, there, like, subtle moments of the chemistry, the interchange between her and Bill Murray is just, there are things that she does with little looks and-

But what's fascinating is that for the most part of this movie, that interchange is, he's Pepe Le Pew. I mean, she's, like, trying to beat him away, you know?

But first, it's her and Rick Moranis.

Yes, we meet one of the great characters of Western, of the Western canon, Louis Tully, who is the accountant that lives across the way from Dana, and you can tell he's just hot for her. He wants to be her best friend.

Desperately.

Just desperately. And I don't think he even wants to date her. I think he just wants to be her friend, you know? Like he's so sad.

He wants to bask in the glow of her brilliance.

Yes, he just wants to be around her, right?

He is a puppy dog that is just enamored with the splendor that she manifests, and he has such an earnestness to him. And of course, he's on a superficial level, a stereotypical kind of dweeb and accountant.

Very, very much of that dweebish.

But there are again so many layers that are revealed to his character and personality that he's so interesting and weird. And so first he kind of asks her clumsily in for a drink. Then that doesn't work. He pivots to inviting her to a party.

And the workout. He also tells her about his workout because he places workout at double speed, so he gets a great workout in half the time. Like there's so much about this guy. Like you literally meet him as a scene and he's kind of pebbly. This is what they call pebbling, where you try to give somebody a bunch of stuff and hope that they'll attach to you. So he's like, hey, let me tell you about my workout. Hey, you want to come in for some? I always keep seltzer water. He's just giving her little gifts.

He's trying to bait her. He's like, what bait can I put on this hook that might entice her to be interested or engaged in whatever. Here, I think we have a clip of some of this exchange.

Let's hear it.

Listen, that reminds me, you shouldn't leave your TV on so loud when you go out to creep down the hall, phone the manager. That's strange. I didn't realize I left it on.

Oh yeah.

You know what I did? I climbed on the ledge and tried to disconnect the camera, but I couldn't get in. So you know what I did? I turned up my TV real loud too, so everyone to think that both our TVs had something wrong with it. Okay, so I'll see you later. I'll give you a call.

I love how Louis is indestructible.

Yeah.

The thing that makes Louis funny and not pathetic is that he's indestructible. She literally just slammed the door on his face and he's like, okay, I'll give you a call. He does not understand the concept of failure because it just doesn't cross his mind.

He has an inexhaustible flame of hope as this personification of earnest aspiration.

He's that worm that wants to move the rubber tree plant. He's the ant that wants to move the rubber tree plant. He's got high hopes.

Yeah, and so now he's hoping, it's kind of like the Jim Carrey line, so you're saying that there's a chance. That's his persistent state, that now he's expecting her to come by his party, that he's throwing sensibly, we found out later, for clients, not friends.

So that he can deduct it from his taxes.

Yes, and so that he can show off to her, because you have a feeling that he wants to peacock for her a little bit, to entice her.

But it's weird, because he's not lecherous, he's just sort of like, he just wants to be her buddy.

Yeah, I mean, I think there certainly is an attraction, but it is...

He's just so weirdly presexual, you know?

Yeah, but also speaking of layers of efficiency in the scene, so as we were coming out of the scene, which is, again, establishing the dynamic between these two neighbors.

And there's the thing with the TV, which is...

Yes, it's setting the table also of that she's entering her apartment, and the TV has been on, but she did not leave it on. Dun, dun, dun.

Dun, dun, dun. Which then leads for her to... She sees...

Yes. Well, first she sees conveniently the commercial that we opened...

Yes, for the Ghostbusters. That's right...

.for the Ghostbusters, that they've spent probably an insane amount of money on, of raised money. And Dana watches it, turns it off, and then we go follow her into the kitchen to unpack her groceries.

Right. Including a package of stay-puffed marshmallows with their little stay-puffed marshmallow man on them, some eggs.

And a carton of eggs that she sets on the counter as she goes about her business.

Yeah, but the eggs then start frying themselves on the counter.

They erupt out of the carton.

That's right.

And start cooking themselves on the counter. And then the fridge growls.

And she opens the fridge only to see a giant Sumerian temple floating in a vast nimbus.

That arrives jubilantly with basically their Batmobile.

That's right, which is a hearse. Yes.

That needs already spent way too much money on and it needs basically everything replaced or repaired.

Yes, yes.

And then we get the introduction to the third, no, fourth woman that we've met in the film.

The librarian, the girl that Venkman harasses, Dana.

And now, the great and amazing Annie Potts as Janine Melnitz. Who I, like as much love as I have for Sigourney as Dana, there are similarly no words for how much love I have.

Oh, Janine is wonderful.

She's such a wonderful character.

She's like such a New York.

Oh, my God.

She's like a stereotype of a New Yorker. But again, everything in this movie, like it's such an interesting movie because everything in it feels lived in. All these characters feel like characters who exist in the universe of this movie. Like, it's such a, like, look. And again, I'll keep harping on it. I'm not trying to like be a buzzkill about it. Aside from, you know, Bill Murray being such a lech in the worst possible way, all the characters in this movie feel like they live in this world and like the world is consistently this world across the board. When you meet the mayor, when you meet Walter Peck, when you meet Zetimore, everybody feels like they exist in the same universe. It's not one of those movies where like, again, and look, I hate to speak ill of the Paul Fie, all female remake because they got piled up on in a very unfair way. But dramaturgically, you know, one of the things that didn't work in that movie was that every person in that movie came from a different school of comedy. Okay, you know, Melissa McCarthy is a different kind of comedy than Kathleen MacKinnon, you know, than Kristen Wiig, then even Chris Hemsworth, you know. So all those characters to me felt like they were in a different movie. But everyone in this movie, this movie exists in a world that is exactly the world of this movie and they're all in it consistently, you know?

Yeah.

And it really works.

Yeah. And there's such interesting, unique chemistry Mm-hmm. across multiple combinations of these characters. That's another thing that I just think is such a marvel that this film achieves is that you start seeing like, well, in the scene, we first have this interaction between Peter coming in and being told, still no calls, no customers. They're just burning through money. They have nothing to show for it yet. But then as soon as he kind of walks out of the scene, emerging from under Trudy's desk.

Where he's been fixing something, we have to imagine.

Is Egon. Right. And I hope we have this clip.

Let's hear it. Clip number seven. This is what passes for foreplay in this movie.

You're very handy.

I can tell.

I bet you like to read a lot too.

Print is dead.

That's very fascinating to me.

I read a lot myself.

Some people think I'm too intellectual, but I think it's a fabulous way to spend your spare time.

I also play racquetball.

Do you have any hobbies? I collect spores, molds and fungus.

Okay. Call me crazy. Call me crazy. This is the sexiest scene in the film.

Well, you know, it's interesting, because they're clearly not on the same wavelength.

I think Egon is getting there.

Oh, yeah.

I think he's not prepared. Now, Annie, I mean Janine.

Yes.

My God. Like, she has just... She knows how to beta hook. Like, she has just done a kind of genetically specific come on to Egon. That is so brilliant. And you can just see the wheels turning in her head and also the imaginings of what she is going to do to this guy. And that is inevitable and it is delicious.

But his obliviousness to it is also kind of, you know...

But she is... She owns him at this moment. And I love it. I just love it.

But this is when Dana Barrett comes in to the Ghostbusters.

Yes.

This film does not waste time. Nope.

So she comes in because she has seen the ad, right? And then Venkman goes back to her place to investigate. And he proceeds to basically, like, he's so awful. He, like, hits on her mercilessly. He's just being annoying, right? And she says, you're not like a scientist. And he goes, well, they're usually pretty stiff. And she goes, no, you're more like a game show host. And by the way, everybody who insults Venkman in this movie is right. Have you noticed that? Like, every person who insults him is actually describing him to a T, but the movie doesn't care because he's the hero.

Yeah. Yeah. This scene is really interesting. So, Peter takes Dana up to basically be semi-gently interrogated by the trio, by the team, by Ray and Egon and him. And there are cross-purposes to a certain degree, because on the one hand, Peter immediately is in love with her. Like, just immediately is gone. He's just smitten. He is completely gone. And so, he has that goal and agenda. But they also desperately need paying clients.

Yes.

And work. And so, there is the usual skepticism and cynicism that Peter would generally bring to the table.

Like when she describes that, you know, there's an ancient Sumerian building in her elevator refrigerator and a terror dog that shouts the word, Zul.

Yes.

And she says, who would make that up? And Venkman's like, some of them are just nut jobs, people who want the attention.

And you also get the sense that at this point, they've already turned down, like had a lot of false possibilities. And so, they're guards up a little bit. But Peter's kind of like, hey, let's indulge her, whether it's true or not. He doesn't really care. But Ray and Egon are like floating alternate possibilities and theories and whatever. But finally, they get on the same page, and they hatch a plan where all three of them have different assigned tasks. So Egon is going to hit the books.

And look up like...

Is there any reference to Zul? Which she does not recognize. Ray is going to go to the city and look up the records for this creepy old kind of Dakota-esque building that she lives in overlooking Central Park. And Peter, of course, is going to accompany Dana.

He's going to go back to her place and check her out. I mean, check the place out.

Exactly, and personally investigate.

Exactly.

And this is a great-ish rom-com scene.

So he goes in and he's got this device with one of those little rubber pumps and a rod. But basically what happens is they get there, he looks at the kitchen, he sees the fried eggs and all of that stuff, but he opens the fridge. There's nothing happening there, right? And they have the following...

He's horrified and judgmental about what he finds in her fridge.

Exactly. So let's go to clip number eight.

There were creatures riding around and they were growling and snarling.

And there were flames and I heard a voice say, Zool.

It was right here.

I'm sorry, I'm just not getting any reading. Well, are you sure you're using that thing correctly?

There's nothing, I think so, but I'm sure there are no animals in there.

Well, that's great. Either I have a monster in my kitchen or I'm completely crazy. I don't think you're crazy. Oh, good.

That makes me feel so much better.

You know, she completely responds to him in this scene, the way that a strong woman would respond to having this lech in my place. Yes. And I appreciate that about him.

That's what I think is great about the scene, because you could transpose this dynamic in a little degree of skill, particularly that Sigourney is revealing here.

Yeah.

And there's even a little moment where like Bill Murray in his line reading is like catching himself. But I think so that his little stammer there.

That's what makes that like, because you realize he really doesn't. And it's the stammer that tells that.

Yes. But I'm like, I would put this up and her up with Rosalind Russell in His Girl Friday. Like it's, it's, it's that kind of a throwback. But it's the subtleties and the, the smartness of it. Okay.

But don't you find, but don't you find clip number nine, which is the end of the scene to be kind of cringe. Let's hear clip.

Oh, yeah. Well, so, so just to set it up, as we are getting like he hasn't found anything. And there's this tension about he clearly is more interested in her than in solving the problem, which is weird because he doesn't look like he is capable of having kind of relationship with her.

Like they're not really, anyway.

Yeah, they're clearly from different worlds. We later find out she's a classical musician, plays with the New York Philharmonic or something. But she's frustrated because she's not convinced he's taking her seriously and believing her from what, and she's trying to wrap her brain around this experience that she's had.

She's had a supernatural experience, yeah.

And she's playing all of this for real. Like, it's not-

The way she delivered that speech in the last, she's in the creatures and they're snarling and she sounds like somebody who's had that experience, she's describing it. She does a great job. She acts the hell out of her scenes in the movie.

Yeah. And then-

And by the way, it's the way that she plays it when you contrast that with Venkman that makes all of this work because she's in the real world.

Yes.

And again, everyone in this movie is in that real world of this movie, which is great.

Yeah. Yeah. But he has, he's clearly clouded by another agenda, even though he has now had the supernatural experience himself. So he knows this could be real, but he's still burdened by this lifetime of cynicism and of being the non-believer, like making a joke about everything. That he's trying to balance and calibrate against his overriding feeling, which he just blurts out at the end of the scene.

I am madly in love with you.

I don't believe this.

Will you please leave?

And then she threw me out of her life. She thought I was a creep. She thought I was a geek and probably wasn't the first.

You are so odd.

I've got it. No, no, no, no.

I'll prove myself to you. It's not necessary. Yeah, I'll solve your little problem.

Okay.

And then you'll say Pete Venkman is a guy who can get things done. Right. I wonder what makes him tick.

I wonder.

I wonder if he'd be interested in knowing what makes me tick. Right. I'll bet you're going to be thinking about me after I'm gone.

I bet I am.

No kiss.

Dana is just beset by men who want her for some, not to know her, they just kind of want to be around her or to be with her or some crap. I don't understand. She's having some very, very, very difficult issues in terms of like men, how men relate to her.

This is what would now be called, in retrospect, just textbook toxic love bombing that Peter is doing, which is insane.

And look, it is to Bill Murray's credit that this scene plays kind of light and charming because this is like, this is where I go, like, I'm glad it's Michael J. Fox playing Marty McFly and not Eric Stoltz, because you imagine who the Eric Stoltz to Bill Murray would have been and how they might have played this. It seemed to have been really dark.

Yeah, yeah, there is like a very short trip to a very dark messed up version of this scene. And this whole dynamic.

You don't change a single line, you just have a different performance and it gets real dark real quickly.

But again, I widen the aperture and think about the genres that we're playing in. This is a Disney fantasy quest. This is the hero who is pining for the princess, who is like, I have to prove my worth to her. So now I have a quest, which is I am going to go solve her problem. I'm going to kill the monster. I'm going to, again, valiantly demonstrate that I am worthy of this exalted beauties, love, and attention.

But you know what's really interesting about this scene, as you mentioned, and you brought up Russell and Russell and all of that. And it feels like one of the things that that conversation brings for me is that this movie feels like so many movies of the 80s, it feels like a hinge between two eras. Like you've got the era of Ricky Gervais, The Office, that kind of more modern comedy that's cringe, that's all of it. And then you've got screwball comedy from the 1930s, right? And it's almost like this is sort of like the beginning of that kind of epic comedy, you know, where you get movies like this and Free Guy like exist in a continuum, you know, in that, you know, this is a big special effects comedy and that in genre and all of that. But it feels like, you know, we are supposed to buy the scene not as a scene where the character is being cringed, we're supposed to be buying the scene as a romantic comedy scene from the 1930s, you know, much the same way as scenes in Superman, the movie play that way, you know?

Yeah. And we are, and I don't even want to say these words aloud, we're only about a decade less distant from Ghostbusters than they were from those screwball comedies.

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.

Yeah.

Look, we live in a world where our entertainment is primarily consisting of the pop culture references of the generation that's creating the entertainment, you know?

Yeah.

I was watching Super, just to digress, I was watching Supergirl.

Yeah.

I thought it was hilarious because she's obsessed with what? Vinyl records, Sony Walkman, and music from the 80s, early 90s, and late 70s. I'm like, yeah, because this movie was written by a dude my age. Well, not really. But the EP, James Gunn, is my age, and it's not like we don't know what his musical taste is like. So it's like, you'll know that Gen X has left the catbird seed of popular culture when characters stop being obsessed with Sony Walkman.

I have a tab opening in my, one of many tabs on my browser, of iPhone cases that look like various Sony Walkmans. I'll send you the link because I'm... Yeah, yeah. No, exactly.

That's what we're talking about, the screwball comedy, since that's what these guys grew up watching. You know, it's like these guys probably grew up watching that stuff on UHF, you know?

Well, and even like the finale, the big finish and the big monster is a throwback to King Kong and Godzilla.

Totally, totally, yeah.

Yeah, it couldn't be more clear. And that's part of the joy of this film, is that it exists in that continuum, and it's in that kind of meta-conversation with the different genres. It's cross-connecting and where it is on the timeline.

Yeah, especially because this movie has so many different genres. It's horror, it's science fiction, and it's comedy.

Yeah, and comedy and rom-com, romantic comedy as well.

Yes. Yes, if you suspend your disbelief, that Sigourney Weaver could actually come around on this guy.

But... It would take an extraordinary supernatural act.

Yes, it's almost like you would have to almost perform the ultimate sacrifice for her.

Yes.

Paul, so now the Ghostbusters have not been doing well. They've obviously lost Dana as a client, right? So now, like, they're just, you know, whatever. They don't have any money left. They're literally have... They're eating the last of the petty cash in Chinese takeout food.

Yeah.

But then something happens. They get a call. And this is one of my favorite things because they get the call and Janine shouts, We got one! And then she hits the fire alarm.

Yes. And here is when I think it is undeniably a superhero team movie.

Oh, and this is one of the great set pieces of all time. Like, what happens after this, you know, where they... So basically, there is a ghost in the 13th floor of this hotel.

Well, first, they just spring into action. Yes. I mean, they are in the fricking bat cave, okay? They slide down the fire pole.

They slide down the pole. They are putting their hands over it.

They have like lockers that are sort of also like phone booths or something, each with their name on them, where they go in to put on their jumpsuits, their superhero costumes, and they gear up with their superhero gear, and they have now, in full glory and grandeur, their own Batmobile, Ecto-1.

One of the things I love about these guys is what nerds they are. Oh my God. And what nerds the movie lets them be. Even though Venkman is kind of like the one who's not a nerd, but he really is as nerdy as they are. He just has learned to cover that up with cynicism and snark. Like totally, of course, they moved into a firehouse. Of course, they've got lockers. Of course, they've got jumpsuits with their names on them. I mean, naturally.

These are guys who, as kids, grew up reading Doc Sampson and comic books and pulp sci-fi.

And watching the George Reeves Superman.

Yes.

And watching Captain Video.

Exactly. And they are living their childhood dreams. They're making it come true. And they are adopting these new personas as the Ghostbusters, as the Super Team.

They're like the Avengers. It's super fun. And you see this great shot where the door opens and the Ecto-1 comes out. And it's the first time you see the license plate. You see the lights come on. And when they arrive at the hotel.

Yes, the Cedric Hotel.

Which is great because they all walk in kind of like a, if it were Michael Bay, it'd be a slow-mo shot. They all burst through the doors in formation. And the first thing out of Bill Murray's mouth is, anybody see a ghost?

After, by the way, Janine has promised the hotel manager on phone, we're very discreet.

Oh, that's right.

And they burst in.

With those backpacks and the siren and everything.

Yes, like exterminators from hell. And they, out of the elevator, some guy asked, who are you supposed to be? Astronauts or something? Cosmonauts. And instead they're like, yeah, they're exterminators. Which they basically are. But they're like, super exterminators.

But I love how Bill Murray response that guy. He goes, we're exterminators. Somebody saw a cockroach up off 13. Yeah.

Yeah, that's a cover story.

That's some cockroach bite your head off.

Yeah.

So, now there's a, so now the hotel manager very efficiently lets us know as we're going toward the elevator.

This is again, efficiency of exposition. It is a walk and talk through the hotel lobby that they're just briefed the basics that they need and that we need to know, which is that there's some freaky shit happening on the 12th floor.

Every employee in the hotel has heard about the 13th floor. Right? And also, and also equally importantly, there's a wedding that's going to happen in the hotel and they need this to be cleared up quickly because there's a big event in the ballroom. So you're getting all the important bits of information.

All the setup that is going to be paid off.

And who plays the manager?

Who plays the manager?

Oh God, I can't remember.

Michael Ensign, who we saw in War Games and Mr. Mom.

Wow, amazing. Producer Brad dropping the rivulets of wisdom as always.

I just remember when we watched War Games, you liked his performance.

Yeah, he was one of the generals, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, he's one of those character actors you see all over the 80s and he's always, you know, like, you know, he always has like five lines and he's always great at it, you know? So now then we have them skulking around the 13th floor.

Well, first we have them in the elevator.

Oh, yes, yes, one of the funniest scenes in this, how could I forget? Yes.

And I want to take a step back here because the mythology of Ghostbusters, we all take for granted now as just something we all know. We all know Ecto-1, we all know the Firehouse, we all know the Proton Packs.

The Corona Ones, everything.

We all know the Ghost Trap, like we just, all these things we know. None of this existed before this movie. This is all original. This was not an adaptation of anything. This was all created out of whole cloth. Yes, with many obvious influences, but the film has a not insignificant lift in terms of having to explain to the audience how this stuff works.

Which by the way, they haven't explained at all yet. This is the first time we're seeing all this equipment. You know, we've seen the Firehouse, we've seen Ecto-1, but we don't know how they're actually going to contain Ghost. So this is our first time seeing the equipment, which is why the set piece that takes place next is you see them...

It's the demonstration. It's so that we get to see them basically experimenting or testing it in the field for the first time and figuring it out. And they're realizing this in the elevator.

You know, it's just occurred to me we really haven't had a completely successful test of this equipment.

I blame myself.

So do I.

I have no sense worrying about it now. Why worry?

Each of us is wearing an unlicensed nuclear accelerator on his back. Yep.

Let's get ready. Switch me on.

As they all, as the others back into the corner.

The great physical comedy here where Akroyd and Bill Murray just kind of back away, or like Ramis and Bill Murray just kind of back away from the nuclear. And yeah, this is the first time we're seeing any of this equipment. And you know, they get out on the 13th floor, they're skulking around.

I think you could almost teach a whole class on this elevator scene. Certainly this whole sequence.

It's interesting, the elevator scene is interesting to me, Paul, because there's scenes in movies where this happens and the movie just stops.

Yeah, exposition that is can be just death on the page.

But they are so funny. And this scene is like we're in the middle of a mission. Things are things are about to start happening. And then you have this lull where they're just sitting in the, they're just dead. And one of the things this movie is really good at is taking moments that are supposed to be moments of high pressure and then just like completely deflating them with comedy, but in a way that doesn't actually deflate them, you know, like, so, yeah, so we're going up to face a ghost, but we're going to stop for about a minute and a half in the elevator and have a moment to be like, there's a lot of silence and negative space in the scene, which is fine.

And again, it's basically a medium three shot of just the three of them head on, head on in the elevator, the most mundane shot you could do in a film, but then the most mundane scene of like people in an elevator waiting to get where they're going and the just ingenuity of like, wait a minute, the audience, there's stuff the audience needs to know that they don't know yet. What the fuck are these things that they're carrying? What are they gonna do? What are they? And the fact that, oh, these characters, have they tested them? Whatever, no, they haven't. What is the added layer of potential danger?

And that's also when they entered the hotel, when Janine says yes, we're very discreet, and they come in, hey, anybody see a ghost? First time we've seen them in the uniform, too. So part of the joke there is just also they're in uniforms, they've got these backpacks.

It's like. Yeah, and they have this confidence, but they also kind of like, oh, we kind of don't know what we're doing. We're kind of winging it. But the other thing, again, so consistently, another example of distinctly sketching all three of the characters' personalities, because each one of them is reacting and engaging with this situation very differently.

Very differently.

And it's the contrast that is the comedy.

Well, look, and I think, and we've said it before here, but I think that is a huge difference between this movie and so many, so many comedies is that you buy these friendships and the comedy comes out of their relationship.

Yes.

You know, and it comes out of their such different personalities. They're so well fleshed out. But even in a scene like this, and like Bill Murray and Harold Ramis back away from the nuclear accelerator differently. Yeah. Like their physicality expresses character. And this is like literally a medium shot in an elevator, but you're still seeing everything about these characters that, you know, and you're seeing that specificity. I think that's what works so great in this film.

Yeah.

But Paul, let's get into the 13th floor. Come on, come on.

Last thing, last thing, last thing. It's another example of narrative efficiency where you are layering different things that one scene is accomplishing at the same time.

Yeah.

And that where this could just be about, oh, we have all the... So much of this film could just be interminable exposition to just keep the audience understanding what the hell is going on. What are these characters doing? How does this world work? What is that? What is this? That never happens because what they do is they flip it on its head and they say, we're going to use these little touch points of exposition as springboards for comedy and character interaction to further enrich these relationship contours.

By the way, which is why I'm trying to get to the 13th floor. I'm not saying this in a mean way. No, because here's the thing. Once they get to the 13th floor and they start skulking around, and they split up. Not yet, but you see the weapon firing.

Yeah.

There's two things that are, they fire the weapon at a cleaning, a sanitation employee in the hotel. She's just trying to clean a room. She's got that cart.

Yeah.

There's the best detail ever, which is she comes into the hallway, they turn around and fire at her, right? They hit the sanitation cart, it bursts into flame. You've had the burning toilet paper, and that's what sells the scene. But that's the first time you've seen the Neutrona Wand fire. So now you know what these guys, in the elevator, it's that amazing sound effect. Once you get to the 13th floor, you see the destructive power of these things, and it's funny, but it's also like, oh shit. Like, this is dangerous stuff they're carrying.

I love this so much. And again, it's a great example of escalation in a film. To get your audience to lean more in, and by surpassing their expectations with surprise. So the first part of this that sets it up, I mean, first of all, you go all the way back. They're playing with these.

No, don't go all the way back.

No, no, no, no, this is important context.

Please don't.

I'm not, I'm just saying up until now, we have seen them using weird, janky, silly little things that don't seem to do anything, but make lights and sounds like the little PK meter with the weird wings and the exterminator hose that's either pumping something or sampling air. But it's like, well, it doesn't matter. It's just weird little doodads.

The last time we saw Bill Murray with a piece of equipment, he didn't even know if he was using it properly. Now they all have unlicensed nuclear accelerators on their backs and these ones that fire like anti-matter proton energy.

Yes. But it's also, it's like the one-two punch. It's the combo of you have the dialogue of revealing that these are nuclear devices on the backs of their head, which is one thing. What sells it is the genius sound design. The sound of that proton pack being turned on as iconic as any sound effect, as a lightsaber, like you don't need any context. You hear that sound, you know what that is. It's a fucking proton pack. Well, and that is cool.

And it's interesting because this is when the movie goes into science fiction territory.

Yes.

You know, because they are now carrying the science fiction weaponry that shoots lasers and all of this stuff, you know.

And the sound then primes the audience, because again, we've never seen this before. We've probably maybe seen some commercials this world too much, or a trailer. But in the context of the film or this world, we've seen nothing like we're about to get in terms of the VFX like extravaganza. But the sound effect primes us to be like, holy shit, what are those things going to do? What are they capable of? And it sets such a high bar as far as like, that is going to be impressive.

Which by the way, they handily meet. And Paul, you know, I hadn't thought about this movie. Look, I think it's really interesting the conversation you're having. I had not thought about this movie dramaturgically before, right? And what I think is really interesting that you've pointed out, and I give you all the credit for it, but I'm going to summarize it, is that this movie is very good at planting an expectation and then surprising you with the actual execution of it. And I had not thought about the fact that we don't see any of the technology until now. But it's slowly busted out, and it's like you see the car, you see the uniforms, you see the backpacks, you hear the sound, and then you see it. It's really interesting, Paul, because I hadn't thought about the construction, the dramatic construction of this film, and you're right, it really does constantly prime you for some sort of a reveal and then surprises you by topping even the reveal you thought was coming. Once you get to this point, this is the first big set piece in the movie.

Yes, and the first big effect shot, and it is spectacular, but it's also ingenious from a design standpoint, because we've all seen decades, generations of ray guns, of lasers, lasers, we've seen that every possible incarnation. How do you do something new in 1984 that no one has ever seen, and Ghostbusters figures out how to do it? A sci-fi supernatural comedy figures out how to do it?

What I think is great about the Neutrona ones specifically and the Proton Packs is that they fire a beam of energy, but it's not a controllable beam of energy. It's sort of whiplike.

Yes, and it's chaotic.

It's predictable, and it's chaotic, and what I love about it, just from the standpoint of loving analog effects and animation, is how they have a thick orange beam in the middle, and it has like sort of ancillary beams on the side, and particles flying around it. It's so dynamic, it's so beautifully done, and again, entirely, entirely with an airbrush. This is literally rotoscoped animation.

Yeah, frame by frame.

And it's so beautiful.

Yeah, it is. This effect is a work of art, but the design of it in terms of that this is handmade, it is also exactly the kind of technology.

Look, Han Solo fires his blaster, Chewie fires his bowcaster, a discreet beam of focused energy comes out that can be targeted. Like these guys, the energy that comes out of these machines is chaotic, it is hard to direct, it is hard to send in any one direction, and it is extraordinarily destructive.

Exactly, exactly.

And that's a straight about it.

They have a vague idea of kind of the direction it's going to go, they can't really target anything specifically, and then they're also like holding on for dear life like a bucking bronco because it's like alive, and they're like a fire hose. And just, that is...

And again, and again, a big part of the genius of the design of this movie is that the Neutrona ones are not guns.

No.

You know, they don't have gun, the handles are not gun handles, they're straight handles, so you hold them like a fire hose.

Yes.

Which again, you know, continues to kind of give you this idea, these guys are not, you know, these guys are fire fighters, blue collar guys, you can have a beer with these guys. And that makes all of it, weirdly the design of the energy Yes. supports the character of the characters.

They are.

It's amazing.

Even though they're academics, they're working class blue collar first responders.

And they're kind of meatballs. Yes.

Yes. No, I-

They are blue collar first responders, that's exactly right, you know.

But for hire now, they've gone freelance because, yeah, there's no institution that can kind of contain them. But yeah, but that opening salvo to the poor maid cart, and then she survives and ducks around and is like, what the hell are you doing?

What the hell are you doing?

Again, classic kind of stereotypical hapless black maid who has to deal with the mess created by white men.

A bunch of white people, yeah.

Destroying things. I'm sure it's not the only mess she's had to clean up that's involved flaming toilet paper.

This leads to the great classic moment of this film, which is when they split up because, as Bill Murray points out, they can do more damage that way.

Yes.

Venkman comes face to face with the iconic character, who would later be known as Slimer.

Yeah.

But it's this little Harvey ghost that's eating hot dogs from one of the room service carts. Bill Murray now is face to face with it for the first time. Not the first time, but Bill Murray is now face to face with a ghost in a way he hasn't before. He certainly wasn't at the library because he's a coward, because he sends Ray in all the time.

Yes.

And that leads us to...

Well, his reaction, first of all, is priceless. And we don't have a clip because it is such a great visual gag of... You mentioned them smoking all the time. But Ray, his cigarette...

That's right, his cigarette falls out of his mouth.

Literally is dangling by cohesion to his lower lip as he is slack-jawed seeing this entity gorging itself on a room service cart.

What is it about Venkman that, you know, like, he's already seen a ghost in the library, but we could very easily... Like, he just slips back into his unbelieving cynicism. And again, it's like it's the first time he's seen a ghost, and he's like, oh, shit, this shit's real. I didn't realize that, you know. It's like you can just kind of tell that, like, just... He just goes back to being a complete cynic, you know, but now he's facing it again, you know. And that leads, of course, to...

Well, yes, because, yeah, he does compose himself enough to then take a shot, Slimer, as we'll call him, flees the rule wall. And then...

And by the way, when these Neutrona beams hit anything, they like scorch it and burn it. Like he hits the wall and he hits like the room service, and it's like, it's an explosion and it's fire. And it's like a gash in the wall.

Yeah.

It's not pretty what the Neutrona ones can do. Let's hear clip, I want to hear clip 11, though. Let's hear clip 11.

Come in, Ray.

Hitman!

I saw it, I saw it, I saw it!

It's right here, Ray. It's looking at me. He's an ugly little spud, isn't he? I think he can hear you, Ray.

Don't move.

It won't hurt you.

Venkman, what happened? Are you okay? He slimed me.

That's great!

Actual physical contact!

Can you move?

Ray, Ray, come in, please.

I feel so funky. Spengler, I'm with Venkman. He got slimed!

That's great, Ray. Save some for me.

You know, one of the great things about this, there are several great inventions in this movie, not the least of which is up until this moment in history, ectoplasm was supposed to be smoke. Ectoplasm was not thick, wispy, gloopy, wispy smoke that would sort of evaporate after the ghost and these guys had the brilliant idea of making it mucus.

Yes.

So when Ray gets slimy, so there's that invention and then of course like Paul, what are the great catch phrases of the 1980s? There's, go ahead, make my day. There's, I don't know what else there's. I know. That's right, I know.

I'll be back.

I'll be back. Then there's, he slimed me.

It's perfect. There's like so many sequences in this film. You could not improve on it in a million years.

You know, and I think one of the, look, at the end of this movie, it's interesting because Bill Murray is the only one not covered in Marsh, in a, well, anyway, he's not the only one covered in Marshmello. Everybody else has slimed, but he gets slimed. And what's interesting about Venkman is because he's the unbelieving cynic, it's so much funnier when he's the victim of something.

Oh, yeah.

You know, because even he sees it and he still goes back to being such a prick about it, and then when he's the victim of it, it's kind of better, you know, it's funnier.

And again, they're all in their reactions to the situation, react according to their assigned personalities.

Exactly. They all wind up in the ballroom.

Yes.

Now, in the ballroom, we find out a couple of really interesting things. One of them is there is a trap. There is literally a little trap on wheels that you slide out, right?

It was paying off the setup from early, when Egon was like, I think there's a way we could contain and trap these ghosts. We haven't seen any work or progress in that direction.

And it's great because you're seeing it in, again, it's like, from the writing level, you're seeing it when it comes, you didn't have a scene where anyone explained this to you. You see it in action, which is gorgeous. From the writing standpoint, that's how you do it.

Because we haven't seen it in action and they haven't seen it in action yet. They're trying it for the first time.

And now comes the most important, again, because they've never used this equipment. They haven't had a successful test and this is the first time in the field. Now we get to one of the most important things, planting and payoffs in the film, which is that they accidentally cross the streams.

And this is another thing that's so smart and impressive about the film. It is building the mythology and the rules of the world in phases. It is not like just flooding you with it all at once. It is parsing it out piecemeal over time in little nuggets when they matter and when they're necessary. It's just so smart.

It's really, you know, Paul, I got to tell you, my mind's a little bit blown during this podcast with you specifically. No, because I hadn't thought about this, you know? I mean, I think I've seen this movie so many times. And I think I take it for, and also, in recent years, I've gotten more into the narrative of just kind of like how the relationships in this movie are very, with women, are very much of their time. And because I've seen it so many times, I know it. So I don't think I'd ever stop to consider what you're saying, which is, expositionally, this movie is kind of amazingly well-written.

I think it's a masterpiece of exposition.

Especially, you know, look, especially when you consider how much modern comedy and look, and again, I say this and I'm sorry, but it's like, I've seen a lot of movies where it just feels like they turn on the camera and hope Melissa McCarthy or Kathy McKinnon would be funny.

Yeah.

You know? And this movie is, it reminds me of The Hangover, you know, a little bit in that these are movies that are very well structured. And the comedy, and again, I think this is a throwback in a lot of ways to that 1930s style of comedy, where a big part of the comedy was structure. It was how the plants, the payoffs, and the sort of farce of it, you know, the kind of door slamming clockwork of it.

Yes. The juxtaposition of action and reaction.

Yes.

Of setup and payoff. Yes.

Of setup and payoff. Exactly. And Paul, I thank you for kind of shifting my perspective on this movie a little bit to recognize that, because that is a very cool thing. So now, we got a big piece of planting here.

Because they find Slimer circling the chandelier in the bar room.

In the ballroom that has been set up for the big wedding with a lot of very, very rich people stuff.

A lot of money has been spent in this ballroom, preparing for the event.

Big multi-level cake, a champagne tower, lots of really nice play settings.

All about to be beautifully, magnificently, gleefully destroyed.

Oh, destroyed, yeah.

Starting with the chandelier and they realize like, okay, we got to have a plan.

So they all fire their Neutrona 1s at the chandelier simultaneously trying to get the ghost. And this is when Egon realizes-

Yeah, he remembers something very important he's neglected to share.

There's something very important I forgot to tell you.

What?

Don't cross the streams. Why? It would be bad.

I'm fuzzy on the whole good, bad thing.

What do you mean bad?

Try to imagine all life, as you know it, stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.

Total protonic reversal.

All right.

That's bad.

Okay.

All right. Important safety tip. Thanks, Egon.

Okay. For those of you who are not watching this as a video podcast because we don't do that yet, the moment he said total protonic reversal, I literally just mouth the words because I respond total protonic reversal to everything since 1984. Like literally I could be at the car dealership and they're like, well, you know, the carburetor has a short-circuit on it. I'd be like, total protonic reversal.

Yes.

And then we get this great sequence. And one of the things I also realize I love about this movie is that there's a procedural element in terms of how they do their job.

Yes. And you're finding out about it on the go though.

Yes.

You're finding about it as they do it.

Yes, because they are creating it. They're doing it for the first time and we're seeing it happen for the first time and we've never seen anything like this before. And that's the thing that now it's so easy to take this movie for granted because it becomes so permeated in our collective cultural context and understanding. But remembering seeing it for the first time, how thrilling it was to see something that was opening an entirely new door.

Do you remember when we talked about romancing the stone and I talked about how the twist with the bell maker and just how delightful that was to me? How watching it in 1984, even though I was writing my little plays and sort of start beginning to sort of build myself as a writer, I remember seeing that twist and going, that happened. That's something that can happen in a movie. And this movie in 1984, watching it in the theater as a 14-year-old, every time, I can't believe they're doing this. This is like, it reminds me of watching Monty Python where you're like, I can't believe they went there, I can't believe, you know. And it's, this movie, when we saw it, was so full of surprise in such a great way, you know, that I think that's what keeps the movie fresh for me, is that I think in some way, even though the movie has become a hang in a vibe for me now, I'm still kind of revisiting those emotions in a really cool way.

Yeah, yeah. And they're still there. And it's still, like, the movies are so fun. And it's an inventive delight. So they deploy the ghost trap, they coordinate, basically, like cowboys, lassoing Slimer with the proton pack beams, pulling him down to be sucked into the ghost trap. So satisfying, so cool.

So sad, because the ghost trap has, like, a little maelstrom, like a vortex of light coming out of it. And then it has these doors that shut on their own, when the ghost is in there, and the maelstrom, it's really satisfying is the right word. It's like when you open a pickle jar, you know?

It's just this little mechanical device that is so specific, but kind of iconic, like there are a lot of these props.

And like a lot of things in this movie, it's got that industrial blue collar quality, like the little doors have the yellow and black safety markings on them.

Yeah, the real people had to make and they built and it actually works, like you believe in the context of the movie it works. They emerge from the now completely destroyed ballroom.

So destroyed, and all the guests are waiting to go into the ballroom.

The manager has been, we've been intercutting to him at the door in escalating horror and anxiety, hearing the chaos.

As you hear the things breaking inside, the chandelier falling and everything and he's going, no, I'm not sure, everything looks fine.

Now it's revealed and they come out victorious, triumphant, they've captured the ghost and that'll be $5,000. Thank you very much. This is $5,000 in 1984. The manager is like, I'm not going to pay that, like that's absurd. That's ridiculous.

And I love how they're like, well, we'll just put it right back in there.

Yeah.

Now this is a class, this is a class five free roaming, no, it's a free roaming vapor or a class five mist, a real nasty one too.

Exactly. We don't need the clip. We just know it by heart.

Well, that's the thing is like, you and I pretty much know this movie by heart and I hadn't seen it and it's been probably a couple of years since I saw it, but it all just comes back.

Yeah, yeah. No, it's wonderful. And then of course, you know, it's an offer he can't refuse. So he writes a check begrudgingly and they leave Triumphant and we get our second act montage.

Oh my god, I love this montage so much. You get the finally get the Ghostbusters song.

Finally.

You get a little bit of it in the beginning, but not the full, not in its full glory. You get Ray Parker Jr. and it starts with Larry King also smoking because back then you could smoke while you did your show on air.

Yes.

And he's talking about how the West, the Eastern Seaboard is full of talk of ghosts and Ghostbusters, you know, and then you get this montage where like they're magazine covers, newspapers, then the Atlantic. You see them in newspapers, you see them coming out of Chinatown and like the store owner pays them in roast chickens, you know?

Yeah. They're beloved. They're now celebrity superheroes of New York City, but also nationally.

And this is the part of it that is so New York City because yes, but it's like, but you know, Larry King reads New York, you know, with the cigarette and the suspenders and the tie. You know, you see that late night show, Joe Franklin. Remember Joe Franklin? Did you ever actually watch Joe Franklin's show? Because it used to be on, they syndicate. So Joe Franklin was this guy who had a late night show post Johnny Carson, like, 2 in the morning. It was syndicated out of New York. And his guests were always like just the weirdest, like, C-list celebrities.

Three or four celebrity hosts in this montage, but only two of them I really recognize. Larry King, I knew. And then it culminates in Casey Kasem talking about them.

Roger Grimsby. Roger Grimsby is one of them. He's a real NBC guy.

Yeah, this is before my awareness.

You know, but it's great because it's like, you know, this is like before, this is before, you know, you'd see Wolf Blitzer in A Mission Impossible.

Yes.

This is the first time I remember, this is the first time I remember seeing real newscasters and real, like, media personalities doing the, you know.

This was not something that was done. And again, it's another element of surprise in the film, but it's also another meta dimension of the film constantly reminding us and asserting that this is happening in our real world.

Exactly. Now, I will say that in Blue Thunder, I believe, isn't Mario Machado, who was Casey Wong in RoboCop, but he's an LA newscaster, the newscaster.

That's true.

Producer Brad Zanotti.

Okay, but that's a local market newscaster. That's not a national figure like Larry King or Casey Kasem.

It's also so specific to New York.

Yes.

Larry King, Joe Franklin, even Casey Kasem with the America Stopper. That stuff feels very, very East Coast.

Yeah.

And this montage feels very much like that. And of course, Casey Kasem is talking about how the Ghostbusters busted a spirit in the middle of a disco and then danced the night away with them.

The other thing the montage accomplishes is it raises Peter's status in the mind of Dana, who...

We see Dana doing sit-ups in her very 1980s aerobics gear in her apartment watching a news report about the Ghostbusters.

And then in her kitchen, I think, listening to the radio, to the Casey Kasem thing, and then we kind of come out of the montage.

The montage is really great double duty in that it kind of shows us how Dana is experiencing the rise of the Ghostbusters and it also shows us sort of the rise of the Ghostbusters. And Paul, we need to talk... There is a Ray Parker Jr. sized elephant in the room we need to talk about and that is the song. The song is great. The song was such a huge hit in 1984. Everyone loved it. We were all shouting Ghostbusters everywhere we went. It's really easy. Who are you going to call? Ghostbusters. It's the easiest song to make fun of, you know, and I get it that it must seem cheesy to people and I'm sure people just love making the joke of busting makes me feel good, right? You know, because it's funny, because busting does make one feel good.

I don't know. I don't know what you mean. I have no idea what we're talking about.

You know, when you bust a ghost, it's like we said, it's very satisfying, Paul. Yes. Very satisfying when those little doors close.

I collect molds and spores.

We loved that song.

And it was everywhere.

We played that song at every party. It was everywhere and it was infectious and it was awesome. And that's all I have to, and I will be taking no further questions at this time.

Yeah, no, and we'll get to it at the end, I know. But Ghostbusters was just such a massive cultural juggernaut.

Because it was a surprise.

In 1984, yes.

It was such a surprise.

And it was charming. But yeah, the song, the branding, the personality.

It really brought together the summer. Ever since Star Wars, sci-fi and summer were very synonymous. You have Bill Murray doing it and Aykroyd doing movies like Stripes, like Meatballs, like all of that stuff, like Blues Brothers. And then suddenly you get that incredibly popular SNL school of comedy and you bring it in with genre.

Yeah.

Nobody was expecting this movie to be like this awesome, and this big, and this much fun, and this rewatchable too.

And we can elaborate this at the end if we have time. But similarly to our characters not knowing what to do in the event of such an occurrence, they didn't really know how to sustain it or extend it as a franchise successfully, which led to the unfortunate Ghostbusters 2.

It really, yeah, that is…

But this could have, should have just gone on and on. It could have been a whole like Bond franchise or superhero franchise or whatever.

You know, Paul, it could have also just been a movie that came out that dominated the world for one year and then that was great, you know? And I think, and look, I think that we think so much in terms of franchises and sequels and stuff and Ghostbusters 2, you know, it has its one or two funny moments in it, but it's a pretty unfortunate movie.

And that's Peter McNichol.

Anytime he's on screen, he's great. No, he's great in that movie. Hey, Paul, Paul, everything that you are doing is wrong. Actually, that's not even as funny as funny as the line is, why am I drippings with goo?

One of my happiest moments and geekiest moments was when I visited ILM, unexpectedly finding myself in front of-

Vigo?

Vigo. The V painting, I like lost my mind.

Dana, this is not the Gainsborough's blue boy, this is Vigo.

Yeah, he's genius in the movie. Peter is amazing. Anyway. So we cut from, so here we see the Ghostbusters are now wildly successful, they're living the dream. If there is one plot whole narrative flaw in the film, that strikes me, is that here's Dana smiling with satisfaction and amusement from afar of her wishful paramour, finding and having all the success. But I would be like, hey, what the hell happened to my case? You're supposed to solve my problem. You're out there becoming celebrities and resolving all these other, like catching all these other ghosts. What about me? But that is not...

Look, this is where Dana's character just goes off the rails for me, because Dana does become sort of charmed by Bill Murray, but at the same time, there is a ghost in her refrigerator that we're not addressing.

Yes, it has been left unresolved too long. And that is an error in the architecture of the film.

And also, again, Venkman was such a dick to her that it's hard for her to kind of imagine. It's a real leap for me to see her kind of seeing on the screen and going, Oh, that guy, I would be more like that lech.

But we're about to close that loop, but it just feels like in this montage in particular, it's like, wait a minute, shouldn't she be like, guys? It feels like a little out of order. But we come out of this to then meet finally, the fourth Beatle, because the Ghostbusters are getting spread pretty thin, being taxed to their limits, and they need help. And so off the street walks in the wonderful Ernie Hudson, playing Winston Zedmore.

Smoking a cigarette, reading a newspaper, because it's the night. Hey, producer Brad, you know why he's smoking a cigarette and reading a newspaper? Because it's the 1980s.

Oh. I think, I think that's...

I needed that. I needed that.

One of the things I did not realize I appreciated about Ghostbusters was the...

Lack of saxophone in the theme song?

Yes, the wonderful freedom from the burden of cheesy saxophone.

No, the saxophone is not a burden. It was a boon. It was a cultural... Oh, anyway.

Paul, that's why you have good friends to watch out for you.

Thank you.

So, Ernie Hudson basically gets the job. There's a job posting in a newspaper. He walks in and gets the job. He's also smoking.

There's a wonderful introductory scene where he is basically interviewed by Janine who is rattling off this checklist of like, do you believe in all these paranormal, cryptozoological, like all sorts of things? And he has the perfect punchline, which is, if there's a steady paycheck, I'll believe anything you say.

You know what I love about Winston? I don't know what Winston was doing before this.

No.

I don't know.

We don't need to know.

He's just this guy. He doesn't seem to have any scientific ability. He's just sort of a guy. But I kind of don't care that I don't know Winston's backstory because the moment he says that line, I get who he is. He's this very no-nonsense guy who needs a job. He's well dressed. He's obviously like...

He's seeing what they're doing and he's like, I can do that.

Exactly. Yeah. But you know what? I don't care that I don't know his backstory because I already feel like he's a friend. And it's interesting because introducing this guy this late in the movie, it's like suddenly you've got... You know, you said the fourth Beatle. It's interesting because as we all know, Ringo came into the Beatles after the band had already been formed. He replaced somebody in the band. So it's just really interesting that Winston comes in this late in the movie, but he integrates so well into the ensemble, you know?

Yes. And that there's no double meaning intended in that given that he is the only black character in the film.

What double meaning? What did I say?

Being integrated.

Oh, God. I'm just using a word.

I know. I know.

All right. No, I did not intend it that way. But I was saying, like, it's amazing how well he blends.

Yeah, I do feel that he and I know that they tried, I believe, and correct me, producer Brad, that they did try to go for a bigger name. But I think this role is underwritten and certainly has a lot less screen time because he's introduced so late, but he's great. But it is something that I... You can't help but notice. It's like, oh!

His role is... But it's interesting that they even chose to bring him into the movie at this point, because, I mean, he's not... As a character, Winston doesn't necessarily do anything in the movie that makes him crucial, but it's like you've got... No, he doesn't.

Crucial? Okay, maybe.

Other than, he maybe helps to convince the mayor.

He does. Him stepping up to speak to the mayor, this is a little later, is a turning point in that scene. But I think also there's a great exchange he and Ray have...

Dan Akroyd, they have in the car.

About faith, and I think that he represents sort of the traditional kind of Christian faith and lens through which he is interpreting events and posing the possibility that they may be nearing end times in biblical terms.

But the way that he does it and the way that they do it is he's not a sort of magical Negro character. It's not like he came to the Ghostbusters straight from the Baptist Church and he's not presented as being particularly a man of faith. He's just presented as somebody who's like an ordinary person.

I think that's something that, and again, it's like what it could have, should have, and it's of its time, and on the one hand, it's like, yay, we have a character of color belatedly joining the film in a role who has some really cool stuff to do and who's really, I think, a cool character and a wonderful actor and performance. But there's also part of me that would have liked potentially, maybe this is dumb or bad, because they are all established as having high degree of relative qualification academically in terms of area of expertise.

Sure.

I mean, again, within the context of this thing.

Nuclear reactors.

Yeah, which is a little weird. But it would have been cool if maybe they'd taken the opportunity to say, guys, you know what we need? We need a nuclear physicist. We need somebody who's really good at this one thing that we're missing, and I know a guy or I know a guy who knows a guy. Then to bring him in that kind of a context where he is elevated in stature of expertise and intellect that, if anything, might put some of them to shame or at least bring them in at that peer level as opposed to just some guy off the street. I don't know.

I'm not so sure about that because, no, no, here's my rival hypothesis for that is that I think you needed an everyman in this movie. We talk about how the Ghostbusters feel like firefighters and they're very blue collar and that, but they're not everyman. Egon has built this nuclear reactor. Ray believes in Tobin's Spirit Guide.

But we've had Peter as the cynic, kind of, normal guy.

Yeah, but it's like he's not normal. There's actually is not a lot of normality about him. That's the thing is that he's in this world.

Right. And he's also, you know, But I can also argue that Dana is that person. However, she's about to be taken off the board.

She's about to become a dog. So that's a problem. Yes.

Yes. So that, I do see, I do see the narrative argument of like, once we're going to remove our civilians, Dana.

You need more civilians, Dana.

What's his name? Rick Moranis. Then we need someone new in that role. So that hadn't occurred to me, but that I'm willing to go with.

Now, they hire him and then Bill Murray, Venkman, because I think that now that he's got a little bit of juice, right? He shows up at?

At Lincoln Center.

Where Dana is with, she's got her cello.

Yes.

She's a cellist. Yes, she's a cellist.

I believe so.

She's with another?

Walking out with an accomplished, I think, violinist.

One of the greatest cellists in the world, a violinist, but he does have a post-nasal drip and he's kind of-

Yeah. He's like sniffing aphron.

Yeah, exactly.

Clearly jealous as soon as he sees Peter.

Venkman.

Kind of skipping along the cobblestones.

Yeah. He's doing kind of like a Chuck Berry duck walk along the fountain.

Waiting to show off Peacocking for Dana, who he's- I would say, like let's give him some credit. Given the last time they interacted, there's reasonable expectation that he's going to be engaging in unhealthy stalker activity. He has left her alone this entire stretch of the film. Yeah.

What he does is tell her that he has some information about Gozer.

Well, under duress. So he doesn't want to tell her. He asks her out.

He wants to have dinner with her.

So that he can then convey it.

It's so annoying.

She doesn't have patience for this. She's kind of mildly tolerating him. Even though I think, trying to give some credit where credits do, on the one hand, little creepy, he knows where she works, but he apparently has heard and compliments her on the rehearsal that they just were in. So it's like borderline, but he also is, you know, not going back to her apartment because he knows where she lives. He's meeting her in a safe public space. So it's this weird mix of like...

The bar is so low.

I know. I'm trying. I'm trying.

The bar is so low. I hear you. I get it. I get it.

But finally, then, to his credit, after attempting to bait the hook for a date with information that he has gleaned, he then says, no, I'll go ahead and tell you. And he explains to Dana that they have researched. Zul is this mythological figure.

The minion of Gozer.

Who's the minion?

Zul is the minion of Gozer.

Very big... What else do you need to know, really? And that's all that they know for now. But that, okay, there is a Zul. And there is some context and some things. And she appreciates this.

So he does validate her. He has done some research, all of that stuff. So now he's not coming at her pretending like she's a nut job yet.

Then she rewards him by setting a date for Thursday, as he is also mocking her friend, the post-NASOL violinist, who he clearly is a little jealous about.

Oh, he's clearly competing with the violin.

So it's a little funny. And Sigourney has fun in this scene.

She does kind of turn it a little bit on him, which is nice. She's kind of playing, she now knows he's legit. He's coming in with real information, so now they're meeting as more equals. Let's pretend this relationship could be real. What's happening is he's coming in with information, he's coming in with stuff, he can actually give her a value. She is throwing it back at him the way that she did before. She's getting what she needs. So you are seeing them kind of meet each other as equals in a very different way from that bad first meeting.

Yeah, and she is in more command and control of the interaction.

In romantic comedy terms, this is the second, obviously the second meet after the disastrous first meeting in which you think the characters are gonna dislike each other. Yeah, and so even that's following a very structured kind of path.

Yeah, so meanwhile, and this is another utility that Winston affords us as a character, we cut back to the fire station, the headquarters, as Ray is demonstrating for Winston and for us, the nuclear containment system that is harboring all the captured ghosts, that is starting to fill up.

And then Egon gives the best analogy.

Yes, yes.

Where he explains that if this Twinkie represented the amount of psychic activity in New York City today, we'd be talking about a Twinkie appr- well, I forget the dimensions of the Twinkie, but it's a...

Yeah, we're not- actually that... Yeah, that's a...

That's not the Twinkie here?

That's a little- that's next. So there's a scene in between where the headquarters, the Sanctum Sanctorum of the Ghostbusters, is invaded by a sinister force.

Oh, that's right. This is where we meet Walter Peck, played by the great, the great. And I will brook no dissent on this, William Atherton.

You love to hate him.

He is the most punchable man ever to appear on film. He made a great career out of it. And I've actually met him once personally. Sweetest guy ever.

Wow.

He was actually really nice.

That's nice to hear. Yeah.

None of that. I think that when he began his career, he was sort of more on the leading man track than the character actor track. He's a very handsome guy. So he's not the guy from Die Hard and he's not...

Yeah.

He is a great foil, perfect foil addition at this point in the film, about halfway in the film, who arrives.

More than halfway. It's weird. We're like a fair way into the movie.

Yeah. Yeah. And it sort of interrogates Peter.

He comes in with a hothead. He's with the EPA and him and Venkman have this scene where they kind of dance around each other very tensely. You know, where basically Peck is saying, you need to show me this stuff. I'd like to see it. Where is it? Where do you keep the ghosts? All of this stuff. And Bill Murray is kind of like stringing him on. Like he doesn't appreciate the government. He doesn't appreciate big government coming into his capitalistic endeavor and telling him what to do in the form of the Environmental Protection Agency. And Peck basically insists that he sees the equipment and Venkman refuses. And Peck basically threatens him and Venkman threatens him back to sue him. And they don't end this meeting well. It's not a happy meeting.

I find this scene so fascinating.

How so?

I find it an unexpected right-wing turn in the story. And in the position the film seems to be taking, which is positioning. And again, this is...

Is to get big government out of my business.

It's Reagan's America at this point in 1984, big time. But that and that, you know, it's a manifestation of the painting, the dark picture of how the government can't do anything right. And the last thing you ever want is to hear from the government. Regulations are bad.

Yes, but Paul, but here's the thing. He's right. He's not right about them being con artists, but Walter Peck is certainly right about this equipment being incredibly That's the point.

Because to position him as the antagonist, as the foil, and the EPA is the bad guys, for basically saying, hey, hold on a minute, you guys have a nuclear facility in the heart of Manhattan that you've got no permits for, there have been no safety inspections for, it is untested, it is unregulated, you are playing with nuclear Armageddon, not just fire, in your basement. And I think it might be a good idea that we take a look for the sake of-

Maybe have some real scientists look at this shit.

Yeah. So that is a very reasonable concern. Now, Walter Peck is obviously an asshole. But the choice of this as an antagonist and the choice of the portrayal of it, I find very fascinating. And that, again, as you said, there is this little dance where Murray's character teases him when he first asks if he can see it. Because, again, he comes in alone, without an entourage, Atherton or Peck, and without a court order, without anything, he's just coming in, not with the warmest disposition.

No, he's coming in with a hot head. He's coming in thinking he's going to kick some ass.

But he is asking if he could see it, but then not nicely enough. And so, you know.

Bill Murray does that smug sort of like, well, you know, you can't see it.

He didn't say the magic word. Why not?

Because you didn't ask me in a nice way.

Well, you didn't say the magic word, which is please. So he says please, but then Peter still denies him. So he makes him jump through the hoop of saying please. And then, which is a dick move.

Yeah, because Venkman's a dick.

He is. I mean, not Venkman. Oh no, no. Yes, Peter Venkman is. But they both are. So this is like a meeting of the dicks. Like they're both kind of assholes. And they probably are not used to dealing with a mirror image of themself as that. Then, so anyway, so then Peck leaves in a huff after threatening a court order, which, you know, Peter basically dares him to do. And now that we know the clock is ticking and then we return down to the basement. And now we get, okay, now we get the Twinkie clip, which I don't know.

I don't think we have it. But basically, Egon basically says that if the amount of psychic energy in New York City were a Twinkie, it would be a Twinkie larger than a school bus.

Yeah, well, the normal amount of psychic energy could be represented by a normal Twinkie. But that currently, that's what it would be.

And again, And Sid and Morse says that's some Twinkie.

Yeah, and Sid says that's a big Twinkie. Now shit is starting to unravel. So the reality is fracturing. Supernatural forces are encroaching to a degree that are going to be clearly a problem. And lightning is swirling and storming over Dana's creepy apartment building. And we see two demon gargoyles. And we got a glimpse of one of them earlier, when we first see the building and meet Dana. That now stirs.

It's like the movie Breaks Point of View to show you the building, show you the gathering storm, and show you the terror dogs kind of coming out of the the statuary in the building.

Yes.

So now you know shit's starting to happen, right?

And this happens to be Thursday night when Dana is trying to sneak down the hall.

Because somebody's throwing a party.

Lewis or neighbor.

Oh, Lewis.

And she wants to make it to her apartment on the other side.

Without being spotted by Lewis.

But of course, he somehow has psychic powers, abilities to know when she's near, even amidst the cacophony of his many client occupied parties in his nice apartment. And so he comes out to try to like say, oh, like you're coming in. And he's crestfallen when he learns that Dana has a date.

Yeah, and it's not coming to the party.

And yet then he says, oh, you can bring it along. Which is so bad.

Because Lewis Tully is bulletproof. Lewis Tully cannot use invincible.

It's sweet and earnest. But it establishes and sets up, OK, this party is happening in Lewis' apartment. Dana is now back into her apartment. And I totally forgot this part happens.

She sits down.

And the phone rings. And it's her mom.

It's her mom. She starts talking to her mom. And just as she is.

Yes. So she's telling her about this date. She shares with her mom, which tells me she's got a very close relationship with her mom, that she's dating a Ghostbuster. And then we're seeing spooky, poltergeist-like energy, light coming through the...

Behind her.

Behind her, through the kitchen door.

She's oblivious to like the supernatural goings on, yes.

And then a really great effects sequence happens.

And she, the refrigerator door opens.

No, no, no, no, no. First, what erupts out of the armrest of her chair?

The terror dog hands come out of the armrest of the chair.

Yeah, yeah. Demon hands, arms come out of the upholstery, burst through the upholstery to grab her. And then the armchair pivots, slides into the kitchen door, opens, and then the refrigerator door opens into the upholstery. And yeah, plummets her into that. But we know there are two of them.

Yes.

And we're back then in Louis' apartment.

Louis' apartment.

In the client party.

Where he very loudly tells his client, he's basically listing off how much everything cost, like how much the salmon was, how much like the crackers were, and explaining how he bought them at a discount. But also he explains how he like basically invites clients and not friends to the party. And that way everything is tax deductible, because Louis is just basically in an extended inner monologue about tax deductions.

Yes.

And oblivious to the fact that he just insulted all of his guests.

Yes.

But that's, you know, the point.

This is, so this is the scene, because this monologue goes on, and I think it's in a oner.

Yeah.

Where he just, we get this like whole walk and talk of him monologuing.

Because some people come into the party, and he explains how they're like George and Millie, and how they have a house that they like, they got from the bank.

And none of these characters we've seen before, these are his clients, it doesn't matter. And he's talking about stuff that has nothing to do with anything with the story. It's just about him, and he's like, we're getting a glimpse into his world, and like there's bigger stakes stuff happening. And so at this point, I'm, because I don't remember Beat for Beat the movie when I'm watching it, I'm like, what is this scene for? Why are we, why is this in? This could be cut.

This is the one you thought we could cut.

And then just at that moment, he takes the coats of the newest guests who arrive. He then tosses them, opens the door to his bedroom, tosses them into the bedroom on top of the second demon dog that is just sitting on his bed.

Just sitting on the bed.

Which then immediately, like with no weight in between to process this, then bursts out. And this is a great sequence. Like this is such a great.

But Louis goes like, good doggy.

Yeah, first he's like, is it a bear? Is it a whatever? And like there's confusion about what it is. It bursts out, it chases, it terrorizes everyone in the party. The party. Destroys stuff. Chases him out of the building into Central Park all the way to Tavern on the Green.

Tavern on the Green, right?

He cannot find the entrance to, to save his life, literally. And he's like splayed against the, this whole sequence is just great Mick Moranis physical comedy.

But what's really interesting about the scene is that it's the one, it's one moment in the movie when I feel like the movie goes from being Ivan Reitman comedy to being John Landis comedy.

A little bit. A little American werewolf.

Yeah, because he's he's banging on the crystal, on the glass walls of Tavern on the Green. And then you cut inside to Tavern in the Green. Nobody can see him or hear him.

They can see him, but they don't care.

No, they don't care. They're just eating.

They're eating. They're like, whatever.

No, but something happens like he like like and then they just sort of look at him. And then they'll just simultaneously turn back. And that's the part that feels very John Landis.

Yes.

Because the demon being attacked by the terror dog, they'll look up and then they'll come back to eating. They don't give a fuck.

Yeah. The terror dog kind of takes him down out of frame. They don't see the terror dog, but they see him sliding down.

That's right.

It's a great shot. And they just go back about their dinner. No one cares.

And who was one of the dinner guests celebrating her 13th birthday at the Tavern on the Green? Future pop star Debbie Gibson.

No shit.

Was she playing somebody celebrating her 13th? Or was that just, is there three of them?

I do remember there are balloons at one of the tables. Yes. So I will look again.

Now this is the night of Venkman and Dana's date. So he shows up at her place.

With roses.

With roses. And she is suddenly in this like Debbie Harry red dress with like spangling, spangles on it. She has like literally, she looks kind of like, like imagine a brunette Debbie Harry. I mean, she's really got all of the eighties makeup. She looks like a Patrick Nagel girl, you know, and she just standing there and there's literally wind in her hair. Her hair is like, like, you know, sort of waving in the wind. She opens the door to Bill Murray and she says, are you the key master? And Bill Murray says, no, and she slams the door on him. And then she, and then he knocks again, she opens the door, so are you the key master? He goes, yes, yes, I am. And he goes in and starts having a conversation with her about kind of why she is this way. And well, that really leads us into clip number 13, shall we?

So real quick, real quick. We've gotten some quality time with Sigourney as Dana in this film.

Yes.

Firmly established, Dana is very wholesome.

Dana is not a sex spot. Dana is very wholesome. Yes.

The reveal in this shot of him at the doorway with the roses as she swings the door open and she is now possessed by Zool. And the fact that they've got fans blowing on her.

Yes.

It's like she is standing across the threshold of her door to her apartment. It's like an 80s music video of her. And it's just in her hair and the whole look, look, whatever. And Peter, very deadpan says, that's a different look for you, isn't it? He's like, what is happening? I don't think we have this clip. And then she's, yeah, and then again, asking the question, the classic, and then the back and forth, and then, you know, he goes in. This sequence is fascinating. But before the clip, because the clip is like the punchline of this.

She's present.

I was telling you that I'm trying to give Venkman credit for not being completely an amoral cat.

Yeah, but the most amoral thing in this movie will be referenced in a mere moment. Well, yes.

But so, he ascertains from her that she is awaiting the coming of Gozer the Destructor.

Yes. Yes.

And then now thinking...

And that she needs the Keymaster.

She needs the Keymaster, which he kind of says he is. Or at least he knows him or something. Or she's like, except welcoming it and thinking he's the Keymaster.

Yeah. Yeah.

He says, I'm a friend of his. Actually, I'm a friend of the Keymaster.

And she prompts, promptly starts to try to seduce, attack, kind of succubus him. And then we're getting like, okay, I get the whole key gate thing. To his great credit, as mind-blowing as this whole scenario is, he recognizes the ethical dilemma, given that this is not Dana. Dana is not in a position to give consent. He doesn't say this out loud. This is implied.

He is tempted, however.

He is very tempted.

He is very tempted. He's a little like Stroker Ace in this scene.

A little bit.

But I know you're trying to give him credit, but do go on.

No, I would say he's-

Not as huge a less, but go on.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's not all the way in Stroker Ace territory. But the fact that the film and the character takes the time for him to point out that he now actually shifts into scientist mode as much as he is capable and able to do and trying to stay within the bounds of this ethical dilemma of dealing with a possessed subject, which he has never dealt with before, but has the presence of mind to do it. And he is trying to get information out of her.

This is kind of the first time you actually see Venkman, like, be even mildly professional. Yes. It's the first time we've seen this. And it is a big shift in his performance. That is absolutely true.

He has the presence of mind, the astuteness to process what is happening and then to try to know, okay, what information do I need to try to get out of her? And how am I going to try to do this?

Yep. And how do I resist being gate kept by this very, very attractive woman that I have been trying to get to sleep with me, but now she wants to once...

And then here it leads to then this is an example of then that exchange.

What I'd really like to do is talk to Dana.

I want to talk to Dana.

Dana, it's Peter.

There is no Dana. There is only Zul.

Oh Zulie, you nut.

Now come on.

Come on, I want to talk to Dana.

Dana.

Just relax.

Come on.

Dana, Dana. Can I talk to Dana?

There is no Dana, only Zul.

What a lovely singing voice you must have.

Okay, so from here, we have Zedemore and Stantz, and also she levitates over the bed in this scene. She also goes to full exorcist on this. Now Paul, after this, do we have the scene with Zedemore and Stantz, or do we have, what comes after this?

After this, we then return to Lewis in Central Park, who has been possessed.

Oh God, that's right.

And we have-

And he's running around saying, are you the gatekeeper?

He's asking everybody. He even asks a horse, and he introduces himself as Vins Clotho.

Clortho.

Sorry.

Yes.

And has a conversation with this horse, who has no understanding, and tells him to wait for the sign, because then all the prisoners will be released. And then he departs, and then the cop or whatever by the horse is like, what an asshole.

The horse, the horse, the horse, the horse on carriage guy.

Then very quickly, we cut to a police officer, depositing Lewis, right, bringing him to the Ghostbusters, at the Ghostbusters headquarters, right, into the custody of Egon and Jeanine.

We're the only people there because Ray and Winston are out on the mission, and because Peter Venkman is out with, with, with Sigourney.

So then we have this really wild, great interrogation scene where they have like a, a colander on, on Rick Moranis' head with a lot of...

And, and, but on the video, they also have a camera on them on the video monitor in the spectral photography. He's the Tarot God.

Yes, yes.

Which is amazing. It's a really nice detail, yeah.

It's really cool. And so they're interrogating him, um, and, uh, and again...

And this is, by the way, this is where you get the whole Lovecraft Cthulhu thing happening because, because basically Vince Clortho gives a whole speech about how, like, during the reformation of the Mechatrix supplicants, a new form was chosen for the destroyer, that of a giant slur, you know, and many, many Zools and, and, and, and whatever's were, found out what it was like to be roasted on the depths of the slur that day, I can tell you. And he's talking about things that sound like cosmic.

Yeah.

You know, nothing here sounds like it took, nothing that he says sounds like it took place on Earth.

Yeah.

Uh, it all sounds like weird cosmic... And one of the things I've heard about this movie, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think, I think this is that Akroyd's original draft, like, by, by this point in the movie, they were, like, in other dimensions. The state buff marshmallow man was just one of about a billion giant characters running around, and, like, the movie really, like, just exploded into this giant kind of...

Yeah, it went kind of batching crazy, I believe.

And you get the sense that Akroyd provided all of that weirdness, all of that, but that Ramis at... You know, I don't know what the exact dynamic is, but it was able to kind of... Together, they kind of were able to take all that insanity and turn it into a structure.

Yes.

A very good structure.

Yeah.

But, but there is, but, and, and, but there is a sense in this monologue that he gives that everything that's going on with these ghosts spans universes.

Yes. The... What's so cool as we're entering this third act is how much bigger the movie gets in terms of scale, scope, stakes. And it, but it, it works. Like it, it earns it. It feels organic, natural. It is, it is not ever feels like a cheat. And immediately here, we get a few things now planted in our minds as the audience. One is this foreboding of, that's been accumulating with little breadcrumbs and now bigger ones, that big shit's about to go down. And that also, it's going to get bad. We have a ticking clock sort of in the form of, or a lit fuse in form of that.

If Louis and Data get together, something could happen.

That's going to be bad. We cannot let that happen. And it's punctuated by something that is, I think, pretty understated in this scene, but I think very important.

Which is?

Janine near the end of the scene, before Peter calls.

Oh yeah, she tells Egon that she's really worried about him, and she's worried he's going to die.

Yes. And she sells it with such, like a, not a throwaway, but like a real concern. Because at this point, you also get this sense that there's a growing connection between the two of them.

Again, with all the silliness in this movie, and the only moment that doesn't feel to me like it is in this movie is that moment that I said felt like a John Landis moment. But yeah, she sells it and it feels real because she's in the world of this movie and so are the characters. It is so well-established. Even later, in a couple of scenes, we're going to talk about them being in the mayor's office and all this stuff, right? And even with all those characters and the humor and all of that, every character in this movie feels like they belong in this world. And that's what makes the movie work so well.

And then, perfect timing, Peter calls from Dana's and he has tranquilized her.

Now, here's the thing. He says that he shot her up with however many milligrams of Thorazine. Paul, we have to ask the question…

Why is he walking around?

Why does he have a syringe full of Thorazine on a first date?

Back off, man. He's a scientist.

Look, it's a contrivance of the plot. You need it. It's there. Whatever. He's got her drugged up.

Let's just assume, as a Ghostbuster, they just have a utility belt. They have to keep basically their everyday carry essentials for situations they might encounter, which would include demonic possessions.

Much in the same way that Batman has bat shark repellent, right?

Sure.

You have a utility belt, you have all sorts of crap in it, right?

Yes. And this buys him time and also then allows him to leave her there.

Yes.

And then because we have to now get everybody in the same place, all of our team members.

Now, Paul, in apropos of scenes you can cut, here's what I find really interesting. There follows a scene where Winston and Ray are in the ectomobile. They're driving down the bridge, and they're talking about how all this... Winston brings up the idea that all of this expanded supernatural activity they've been encountering is somehow a sign of the coming end of the world, and the sky will turn as dark as sackcloth, and the moon has red as blood. Which is funny because he says to Ray, he goes like, have you ever read the Book of Revelations? And Ray quotes it, you know, chapter and verse. And it's a scene that doesn't have a dramatic thrust, but I think it's important because it actually has these two characters talking like friends. So you get the sense they're smoking together, which always is the shorthand for people getting along, which, you know, no matter how bad smoking is for you. And it's a scene that also sets up a little bit of the foreboding of what's going to happen in the next scene, you know?

And also Winston is driving. So he's been interested in that. But yeah, that they are now kind of being established as a team within a team, as this duo that are out on patrol or can do things to each other. But that they also have respect to each other and relate to each other as peers, which I do think is important and valuable. But again, in terms of setting the table and expanding the scope and scale of the film. Yep. As far as, oh, we're entering this higher stakes.

Yeah.

I think this is very effective in terms of helping to paint that picture.

There has not been a lot of big VFX stuff happening in this movie yet. Like literally the Terror Dogs, the Terror Dogs are stop motion and all of that. That's great. But it's not a huge set piece. And what's coming is like, again, it's such an escalation from the ballroom. You know, and so we go to the next day, we're at the Ghostbusters and Peck shows up with lackeys. He's got the cops, he's got New York.

He's got the court order to shut down the containment system.

And Venkman shows up and now he's trying to play nice, but Peck is like, hey, I tried to play nice before, you insulted me, now here's the court order, fuck you, turn the equipment off. And Egon's like, don't turn off the equipment. Even the firefighter's like, bro, I've never seen this kind of equipment before.

Yeah, he issues the direst of warnings, like paints this apocalyptic picture of what will happen if the containment unit goes down. But it's also been established at this point that the containment unit is reaching capacity. Yes, they are having a problem. There's, it's crazy how much spectral activity, whatever they've had to wrangle and contain.

In such a short period of time.

And yeah, the Con-Ed guy like pulls the power lever down.

And then you start hearing some really fun sound effects.

Oh yes, and then bricks start loosening from the wall and bright lights come through the cracks and there's rumbling and it's, they all know they gotta run.

And now the ghost containment unit splits open, literally a shaft of light comes out of the top of the firehouse. And from it, like roots coming out of a tree, all of the ghosts that were contained start coming out and now they're terrorizing the city.

Yeah, the building erupts.

Yes.

With an explosion of, again, fulfilling the prophecy that we heard from the key master, I can't keep them straight, that all the prisoners are released and then perfect cut Dana awakens. Specifically, Zul in possession of Dana awakens.

Yes.

And yes, and also...

You can knock on the door, by the way, to the door. Because this is when the key master finally finds her, right?

Not quite, not quite. So that's the culmination of this next montage, which I call the supernatural chaos montage. Right, right. And that we then see, and it's a great showcase of visual effects, is ghosts and monsters, whatever wreaking havoc across the city, intercutting with Lewis, the key master, methodically. I mean, not that methodically. He's kind of stumbling and wandering around in a day.

He's trying to find a gatekeeper.

He is inexorably called and drawn toward crossing the city to get to Dana and to her apartment. And so we now know like, oh shit, that's going to happen. Meanwhile, the Ghostbusters get arrested, are in a jail cell or a holding cell with a lot of other-

Weirdly, now weirdly, Egon has been allowed to bring in a whole set of blueprints and stuff.

Yeah.

And they're studying the blueprints of the building and they realized that the building, it turns out, was made by a guy named Ivo Shandor.

Yes.

Who was a spiritualist in the early 20th century who believes humanity was too sick to live. Yes. And the building is basically an antenna designed to summon forth a gozer who will destroy humanity.

Yes, specifically.

And the punchline here is, yeah, your girlfriend is living in Ground Zero, Spook Central is basically it.

Yes. Yes. Specifically, it's like a superconducting antenna. Yeah.

The building was made like, yeah.

For spiritual turbulence. And...

My favorite thing is when he describes Ivo Shandor, he goes, he says, he performed a lot of unnecessary surgery.

Yes. And formed a secret society in 1920, which I'm just like, oh, who doesn't love a secret society and conducted rituals on the roof to bring about the end of the world. So again, just rich and nice little nuggets of exposition.

But it's happening on the go because we're in prison and Winston's like, guys, I got to get my own lawyer because Winston's listening to all this going like, whoa.

But then, right on time to get us to the next scene, a friendly cop comes down and tells them they've been summoned by the mayor because... The mayor. Shit's gone crazy in the city.

Look, in the 80s, New York was like a character in our lives. This time in the 80s, when Donald Trump is coming up as a real estate developer, you've got the whole phenomenon of yuppies. This is around the time when Tom Wolf wrote Bonfire of the Vanities. This is around the time Bright Lights, Big City was written. New York was this center of arts and culture.

Ed Koch was the mayor, I think. Average American knew the mayor of New York was.

Exactly. The guy they got to play the mayor of New York, he doesn't look too much like Ed Koch, but he's got that look, he's got the vest, he's got the tie, the receding hairline. Everyone in this next scene in the mayor's office looks like a New York guy and it gives the movie so much verisimilitude. When the Ghostbusters come in, the mayor is literally in his vest with his tie undone. He's like, all right, Ghostbusters, what do you got for me?

But there's a cutaway between them being summoned in the jail cell and them arriving at City Hall, which is Louis arrives at Dana's apartment. And we get the, I am the key master, I am the gatekeeper exchange. They kiss.

And what I love about this, though, is Rick Moranis is straight up a foot shorter than Sigourney Weaver. Okay, like Sigourney Weaver is nine feet tall and he's just this tiny little dude and he's looking up at her and she's the sexual aggressor in the scene, which is hilarious. It's just the physical difference between them, which she basically dips him and kisses him.

Exactly. She dips him as she's kissing him. It's glorious.

It's glorious.

It's glorious. They walk towards, because as all this energy, spiritual, supernatural stuff has been going off, like two walls of her corner 12-floor apartment have exploded.

They've blasted away.

So she has this open-air apartment now. And another wall has dissolved to reveal a secret staircase. Yes, leading up to the roof.

To the temple, yes.

Presumably. And so after they kiss, they then walk hand-in-hand. At this moment, I couldn't remember, as I'm seeing her dip him into a kiss, whether they just got it on them in there, but they don't. They were suing.

No, they get it on later on, oh yeah, yeah.

On the altar, on the roof. But they go hand-in-hand up the secret staircase to the roof. Then we cut to the Ghostbusters at City Hall as-

With the mayor.

With the mayor, as Walter Peck is accusing them of being frauds, and all of this is a mass hallucination.

Walter Peck is saying that they basically use hallucinogenic gas to make people think they're seeing ghosts. They show up with a laser show. It appears that they've done it. But the firefighter, the chief of the firefighters is saying, like I've never seen 5 billion forms of combustion, I've never seen anything like that building. The head of police is saying, the walls in the 54th precinct were bleeding. Then Mike shows up. Their version of Cardinal Mahoney shows up. Of course, the mayor goes up, kisses the ring and says, you're eminence. Then he goes, Mike, this is a bad one. The Monsignor is like, Lenny, I think this is a sign from God.

Yeah. No, this is a fun.

I love that the Monsignor and the mayor are like, Mike, Lenny.

Yeah. No, it's good. I think we have a sample of some of the exchange that happens.

The best part of this entire scene is that basically, the Ghostbusters are being accused of all of this. The Ghostbusters are explaining that Peck is to blame because he shut down the containment system. Here's the pinnacle of that argument, clip number 14.

Everything was fine with our system until the power grid was shut off by Dickless here. They caused an explosion.

Is this true?

Yes, it's true. This man has no dick. Well, that's what I heard.

I think that in the annals of the greatest line deliveries of all time, yes, sir, it is true. This man has no dick. That is like, I mean, every time I've seen that movie, I laugh at that line. It's just delivery is impeccable, isn't it?

I mean, no pun intended.

Well, that's impeccable. Thank you.

Thank you. Bravo. Yeah, I don't think it can be proved on. It is in the canon of the greatest comedic takedowns.

I mean, frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

Yes, sir, it's true.

This man has no dick.

Yeah.

But the upshot of the scene is that basically Peck freaks out as we saw here, right?

He loses it.

And the Ghostbusters, including Winston, Winston convinces the mayor. He says, look, I'm new to this thing.

I've seen a lot of shit with these guys.

No, he says, I've seen shit that would turn you white, which is a very funny line to have a black man say in a movie to a white man. But basically Peck gets taken off the table by the mayor and tells the Ghostbusters, what do you need?

Yes.

Yes. Which is the last thing you want to tell Peter Venkman because it's a hard cut too, Paul.

Then they have a full police escort, the National Guard.

And the military, the National Guard, all behind Ekto One as they're coming out from under the arms.

And then we get our third montage, the Saving the City montage to the eponymous song. And we see a contrast between religious figures praying because they think it's the end times.

The Ghostbusters are coming in with all of this escort into the Shandor building, right? And there's literally like rabbis outside the building, because there's dark storm, it's daylight, but it's dark storm clouds and lightning outside the building. So there's like rabbis and priests and Buddhist monks praying outside the building.

But crowds are cheering for them also like they would for Superman.

And Bill Murray and they show up in the Act 1 and they're like literally pressing, they're like pressing the flesh, kissing babies. Bill Murray is like, race dance, the heart of the Ghostbusters. Everybody's applauding for them. It's like Bill Murray is treating it like he's accepting an award, which is hilarious.

Even though they're going to their doom and they have no idea what they're going to do when they get there.

And just as this mirth is reaching its apogee, suddenly there is a dark rumbling, the entire pavement around them shifts and suddenly the crater opens and seems to swallow them up. But then they come back out of it and the crowd starts cheering and they're going into the building.

After a long silence, where the crowd fears for their collective demise before their eyes, they emerge heroic.

Victorious. Now Paul, here's the great thing about this movie. They have to go up 120 stories and much like the elevator at the Cedric Hotel, they go up the stairs. So the movie literally stops for these guys to go up the stairs and again, this should not work, but it's so funny that now they're going up the stairs and like, what floor is this?

I hate to correct you. They go up 12 stories to Dana's apartment, but they're more ahead. It's a great matte painting extension of the stairwell they're going up. They're clearly not in the best of shape for 12 stories, but they get up there after who knows how long it took them. Meanwhile, we have C. Dana and Lewis.

Lewis, they have just had the best sex of their life, which they're not going to remember because they're possessed on top of the altar.

One of them has, at least.

The keymaster and the gatekeeper have done their job. Let's just say that. Of opening the gate, yes.

Meanwhile, then the team finally arrives at Dana's now destroyed apartment. They find the secret staircase, they follow it up and.

By the way, and this is where Egon has one of my favorite lines where he goes, Art Deco, very nice.

Yeah.

As and they find Dana and Lewis are channeling purple lightning to open the portal for Gozer.

That will allow Gozer into our dimension.

And they turn into the Terror Dogs.

At which time, Bill Murray turns to his friends because they've literally just seen the woman that he, you know, purports to be in love with. And he turns to them and goes, right. So she's a dog. Yeah. Again, Bill Murray's line deliveries in this movie make up for so much that is wrong with this character. He is so good at this.

You know, Peter has very specific coping mechanisms. Yes, he does.

So now the portal opens and Gozer comes out in the form of the most gorgeous Patrick Nagel girl in a kind of spangly unitard with glowing red eyes. She's like, Patrick Nagel, by the way, made up posters. The cover of the Duran Duran Rio album was Patrick Nagel. And all of his women in his posters look like that. And they look like the woman who comes out as Gozer.

A little less demonically red.

Patrick Nagel's posters are not as demonic as Gozer.

I wrote in my notes, hot zombie punk Gozer emerges from the Crystal Chamber portal thing. It's glorious. She is maybe the most 80s thing in the movie.

I think the most 80s thing is when Janine says, racquetball.

OK, that's fair. You got me. You got me. You got me.

So, as he is wont to do, of course, Bill Murray sends Ray in. So now this is interesting because Ray goes in and he gives this whole speech about the power vested in them by the state of New York. I command you to go to the, to return to your home dimension or to the closest nearest convenient parallel dimension. Now Gozer asks, what I think is a very, now look, if I'm Gozer and some shem shows up and starts bossing me around, I'm going to ask the question that you think Gozer would ask. Shall we hear number 15? Let's hear clip number 15. So I think, yeah.

Gozer the Gozerian, good evening. As a duly designated representative of the city, county and state of New York, I order you to cease any and all supernatural activity and return forthwith to your place of origin or to the nearest convenient parallel dimension. That ought to do it. Thanks very much, Ray.

No, Dan. Which leads to one of Venkman's best lines in the movie, clip number 16, let's just go ahead and hear it.

Ray, when someone asks you, if you're a god, you say yes.

So yeah, so if somebody asks if you're a god, you say yes. That is, of all the wisdom in this film, that is the most wise thing you can take away from this.

It's an important life lesson.

Very important.

I think, by the way, I think it is fascinating and extra amusing that it is Egon who imparts that lesson.

Yeah.

For some reason, I thought it was Venkman. It feels like a Venkman line, but it's nice that Egon gets kind of exacerbated by it.

Yeah.

At this point, like Egon, it is like, yeah, it's, I think that makes it extra funny.

It wasn't Winston?

No, no, it was Egon. So guys, now Gozer gives us a choice, which is that we can choose the form of the destroyer who's going to come in and destroy the world. We can choose the form. And Venkman basically tells everybody to clear their minds because if you think of J. Edgar Hoover, J. Edgar Hoover will come up to destroy us. And then Paul, look, I don't know about you. I don't know what kind of man you are. Actually, I do. Never mind. When this happened in 1984, in a movie theater, when I first saw this, it was on the order of, I mean, because Ray thinks of something that could never possibly hurt them, something he loved as a child. They used to roast Stapuff Marshmallows at Campo Conda. And that is when the Stapuff Marshmallow Man shows up, 100 foot tall and starts menacing the city like Godzilla. Paul, this was the greatest thing I'd ever seen in a movie. I didn't think, I knew movies could do this, but I didn't, I didn't realize, like you know how you know movies can do something, but then you're like, they fucking did this. It's like the, it's the Stapuff. And I think people don't realize how like amazing that was when it happened, you know.

It was revolutionary.

It was so good. And the reveal, the reveal, because once Dan Aykroyd says something that could never hurt us, you know, and then, and then you're, oh my God, what's going on? And then you sort of see it between buildings until finally Bill Murray just goes, it's the Stapuff Marshmallow Man.

No, no, Dan Aykroyd says that.

That's right.

This, so this movie, up until this point, has been such a high wire act of balancing tone, of genres, of all these things of world building, of keeping it grounded, keeping all these characters distinct and unique and relationship and like keeping you engaged and clear in what's happening and surprising you with delight and wonder and just insanity, but it all makes sense and works. It is hitting banger after banger after banger the whole time. And then we get to this climax. And you're just like, you have really got to like swing for the fences here and do something. Because how are you going to top the explosion, everything that you've been building and escalating, how are you going to pay this off? And the one-two punch, first, the reveal of Ghostbusters, as this hot punk goth like chick is insane. And then the voice, which I think that was a choice in post.

He has a voice like this, Ghostbusters, the Ghostbusters.

Which was a very smart choice to do that. And the peril, but yet cut with the comedy of they are outmatched, they are so screwed, their weapons are useless. And at one point, though, they think they dematerialized her. They think that stupidly that they somehow won.

The Neutrona ones don't work.

And she vanished, but she's just like toying with them.

Yeah, and you hear her voice saying, choose the form of the destroyer. So yeah.

And there is this beat, this moment where, when Peter says, if you think of J. Edgar Hoover.

J. Edgar, yeah, I was about to say, why doesn't J. Edgar Hoover shows up? Cause he thinks of J. Edgar Hoover, yeah.

And so I guess there's-

which by the way would have been just as funny.

It would have been, maybe not as funny. I don't know who you would cast in 1984, Paul Alvarado-Dykstra.

What I was going to say, Paul, is that it's interesting, though. You know, the movie has given you little bits of absurdity.

Yes.

Okay. It's given you Slimer, you know, in the hot dog stand, eating the hot dogs. He's giving you like a skeleton driving a cab. But this is the moment when the movie caches that check.

Yeah.

The movie has been writing a check that they are masters of balancing that tone that you described between comedy and wonder, sci-fi and horror, right? And this is the one where they go like, you know that Goodwill we've been sowing for the last two hours? You're going to pay us back now and we're going to pay you back, but this is how. And it's so, it is such a moment of absurdity, but it is so well done. And it is such a beautiful thing.

The risk you take when you take this big of a swing is that you're going to lose the audience, that they are just not going to be along for the ride, that it is just going to be a bridge too far, and that they're not going to be able to go that far with you. I've had this, I just had this conversation the other day about Ready or Not. I know I have a lot of friends who love Ready or Not. I love most of it. I think the ending, it writes a check it cannot cash and it kind of jumps the shark into cartoonishness that just takes me out of the movie. I'm so happy for all the people that ending works for, and I can make the argument of both case, it's subjective. For me, it didn't work. Here not only does it work, it is the exquisite craft from a writing, from a performance and especially an editing standpoint.

Editing, yes.

To set this up and deliver the payoff in with such just perfect pace and timing. Because it starts with them, oh, choose the destroyer.

You hear, it's like Jurassic Park, you hear.

What is it, yes, what does it mean? And everyone's like, clear your minds, clear your heads. You hear the stomping and you immediately can register on one of the faces.

Yes.

Which is Dan Aykroyd, which is Ray. He knows as soon as he hears the looming giant Kaiju footsteps, he knows it's his fault. He knows he them all. And he is like looking side to side. He's like shrinking in his body. And it's like, who did it?

Who, what, someone?

I didn't think it was like blah, blah. You think of something?

And literally the steps are getting closer. They're getting louder. And you were just, we're excruciatingly extending the time before the reveal of what did Ray do? What did he think of? And when are they going to know that it's him?

And then Ray starts giving the monologue about Campo Conda.

And the fact that he delivers that, again, with such guilt and apology, but yet also wistful nostalgia.

There's a reason why he thought of this.

Of course. He actually thought maybe this would save them. Like maybe this was actually good. Like he's still trying to reconcile in his head the fact that I may have just doomed the entire world.

I'm trying to think of something that could never hurt us.

And then the perfect timing, the comedic timing of the reveal of the stay-pup Marshmallow Man. Both the line and the visual and the design, the design of the character, it's genius. This is genius.

Paul, what you're seeing here, and I think I'm going to compare this to the end of The Return of the Jedi, in that you're literally seeing everybody who is working in this movie is working at the height of their powers. You've got Edlund doing the VFX. You've got these comics who cut their teeth in SNL in the late 70s and the early 80s. You've got Ivan Reitman. You've got Elmer Bernstein. This movie is a bunch of heavy hitters at their top, and this sequence shows it so well. Everything works. Now Paul, this is the moment also when our characters realize, because this movie is all about planting and payoff, right? Stay Puft Marshmallow Man was planted in Dana's apartment.

Kind of.

Now, we know that there is one thing we must never do.

Well, but even before we get there, because they first are like, okay, let's do what we can. And they're shooting at it, and it does catch fire, but they don't have enough power to incinerate the entire, the mass of the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man.

But the best part of it is the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man's little angry face when he gets set on fire.

And he's coming closer and closer, and he starts climbing the apartment building like King Kong, as he is on fire, a roasted Marshmallow Man climbing. This is just insane and hilarious.

It's like Monty Python. It's so like just out of left field and awesome, but it works.

And then in a moment of desperation, Egon proposes The Unthinkable. And again, master class in setup and payoff. The thing we've been told, the unthinkable is you absolutely under no circumstances can ever do, is the only thing that will get us can do and that we now must do.

And that is across the streams across the streams.

And they're all aghast. And they're like, how, what, what? And it's like, and they kind of say farewell. Some of them like basically say farewell to each other thinking this is it.

Yeah, you're seeing the friendships. You know, look, it's like these guys who know each other their whole lives and seeing like, you know, and then they're like, Venkman, it's been an honor, right? You know, whatever. And it's great because you, it is a shockingly, four men with nuclear accelerators are about to fire neutrons at a giant marshmallow man climbing up the side of a building. They're saying goodbye to each other as friends. And it's still kind of touching. I mean, that's an accomplishment.

On top of that, Egon is proposing the unthinkable, knowing that Janine has had a psychic prophecy of his death. I'm like, oh, it's just so good. I love this stuff.

They cross the streams. They shoot the staple of marshmallow man. And they finally drive back Gozer and kill the terror dogs. And they're all doused in marshmallow, except for Bill Murray, who somehow only gets like a dollop of him. I think that's a star thing.

Probably. And also, we get a mass amount of marshmallow goop right onto Walter Peck.

Right on Walter Peck, who somehow went there to check out the false light show that he was on.

Yes.

Now, and then of course somebody says, man, it smells like burnt dog. And of course, Bill Murray is upset because Dana was a dog.

And Ray's all apologetic. He's like, oh, whatever. And it looks like the terror dogs are turned back into statues. Our toasted shells have been.

It looks like they've gone back into being gargoyles. But, but thankfully Dana and Louis both break out of their.

Yes. Kind of like an Easter egg.

Kind of like Han Solo coming out of Carbonite.

A little bit. And yes. And so they break Dana out, rescue her out of the ceramic carcass of the demon dog gargoyle.

She and Peter have a nice reunion. And then one of my favorite lines in this movie happens, which is that when Lewis comes out of his dog shell, Egon says, you know, you've been through a lot. Would you mind if I took a brain sample? And Lewis goes, sure. Because he's that desperate for friends.

Everything. I mean, this is the problem with this movie. Almost every line is quotable. When we see, we cut to, we know, okay, Dana's alive. She's emerging. They have to break her out of the terradog husk. We cut to Lewis, who is starting to emerge, he can't get the demon dog head off of his head. And then as they rescue him, the first thing out of his mouth is he looks around, he takes in the destruction and he says, whoa, the superintendent is going to be pissed.

Be pissed. That's right.

It's just so. Yeah, in in many other movies, in many other executions of of attempting to do this kind of movie. So many things like that would just be so painfully stupid. Yeah, that they would not land. They would not work. I don't understand how this movie has such a basically perfect batting average at every time it, takes a swing.

Look, this is a movie where Rick Moranis is the supporting character, okay? You know, and Rick Moranis was, you know, doing the Honey, I Shrunk the Kids movies. He was a star on his own right, you know? So it's like everyone in this movie is a superstar. That's the thing. It's like Reitman, Edlund, Ramis, Murray and Moranis. It's like they're all superstars. That's why the movie works so well. It's like everyone is.

Yeah, and it's not just that they're superstars. It's that they are brilliant comedic minds.

And they're at the top of their game. And even somebody like Atherton, right, is cast. And he is also at the top of his game. I mean, this is, you know, it's like, I think he probably topped himself in the Die Hard movies as Dick Thornburg. But I mean, he is, he's just killing everybody in this movie. And even the supporting characters, like when the Monsignor comes in and he's like, Mike, Lenny, like even that, like you just, and I honestly think the magic trick this movie does is create a realistic set of people in a New York that you buy as real enough. And by the way, that's what was lost in the sequel is then they're all just types and the city is not, and it's not any of that, you know? So Paul, final verdict, like or dislike?

So my memory as a kid, when I saw this was being kind of obsessed and absolutely loving it. And then over time and distance, kind of feeling like, yeah, Ghostbusters is good. I really liked that movie. I don't remember the last time I saw it. Because it also just feels like you know it. Like I don't need to see it again. I've seen it so many times before.

Yeah.

And seeing it again, again, now with so many other contexts and lenses and things to look at it and assess it. I love this movie. This is, I think, kind of a masterpiece.

I think, look, I think ultimately the biggest issue in it for me is, you know, the, but I got to tell you.

There's not a single Latino in this New York City, let me just say.

Oh, look, we're talking about movies. We're talking about movies from the 80s.

It is not perfect by any means.

No. But wow, it really is. And I think, you know, one of the things that you've really brought to my mind in this conversation about it is just the construction of the script, which, you know, look, I mean, I do this for a living. We do this for a living, right? And the fact that I had never thought about that, Paul, tells you how much I must love watching this movie, that I never stopped, as a professional, to look at this movie on the level of script and on the level of the actual mechanical function of the script. I think that's the best compliment I can give this movie.

Well, it's a compliment.

And you ruined that, Paul, and you ruined that.

I'm such a bastard. But here's the thing. If I can ricochet that compliment, which I humbly accept as well, but can only return to you and Jose, because I also think that part of my armament of assessment ability is by having taken the graduate course in writing and producing and masterclass that is the Children of Tendu Podcast.

That is a podcast that I do with my friend Jose Molina, who's another Puerto Rican show runner. And yeah, we've been doing it for about 10 years. And thank you, Paul, that's really sweet of you to say. I really appreciate that. Yeah. So Paul, do you think this movie had any lasting cultural impact, Paul? What do you think?

Big time, big time. And as I kind of alluded to before, seeing it now with the whole thing about, oh, let's dismantle government agencies, let's privatize everything. You know, I would be really curious. No way do we need another failed attempt at a Ghostbusters. We have not seen the latest two Ghostbusters sequels.

Look, I saw Ghostbusters Afterlife. I didn't see Ghostbusters. I've seen the Pulfig Ghostbusters and I've seen Afterlife. I think the Pulfig one is, sadly, you know, all the cultural stuff and all the woke stuff that happened with it, which was all bullshit. The movie should not have been maligned for having an all female cast at all. That's ridiculous. Sadly, the movie didn't help itself in any way. It is just a movie that doesn't really work for you.

It doesn't all work. There are things in that film I have great affection for. I just think Kate McKinnon is a joy and a genius anytime she's on screen. But like you said, it doesn't have this cohesive integrity, success. It's just not all there. It just doesn't come together and land like this does. And I just haven't had the heart to see the next two films.

The thing about Afterlife is, Afterlife is a perfectly good sort of pastiche of an Amblin movie. But what's interesting about that is Ghostbusters is not an Amblin movie. Ghostbusters is not for or about kids, even though we were kids and we loved it. Ghostbusters is about three kind of disreputable dudes who smoke a lot. And the fun of it is not in the Amblin-ness of it, it's in the scuzziness and the greediness of the New York of it and how you've got ghosts in a New York that looks like New York in 1979. So I find that, look, no flies on anybody making these sequels, I'm sure that everybody loved them and tried their best and all of that, but it's like they're not getting the right lesson. The right lesson is not turn Ghostbusters into Amblin. You know?

Yes. There is part of me that just in my heart of hearts, being that kid who saw this in the theater repeatedly, yes, and believe that this was real or could be real. Yep. Is wanting to set all those sequels aside and imagine what are the Ghostbusters doing now in Mayor Mandami's New York. And I would kind of love to see that. Yeah.

The other thing the new movies did, which is that the Ghostbusters had had a falling out and you know, Egon hadn't had until. And I just, I don't want, no, I don't want any of that.

No one asked for that.

It's sort of like, it's sort of like, Paul, have I ever pitched you my alternate opening for Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny?

I don't know that you have.

There's a giant palace in Africa, right? These two government chimps, they look just like the guys in the first movie go in, they knock on the door. Who opens the door? Old Indiana Jones. He's got this giant palace that he bought with all the shit he stole. He's got all his treasures in there, right? The two chimps come in and go like, Dr. Jones, we've got a problem. There's an archaeologist missing in Vietnam. They were on an illegal dig during the war, and Indiana Jones says, who is it? Who would be stupid enough to do that? And then they go, your son. And then he goes into a secret sanctum, and he debts the hat, and Marion goes like, you can't go after him, you're 132 years old. And Indiana Jones is going like, fuck it, I'm going after the kid. And he does, because I don't want to see my heroes be defeated, sad, people who've had a falling out with each other.

You could say short round, instead of his son.

It's fine, it's short round, whatever. But you know what I'm saying, it's like, I don't want my heroes to be defeated, sad people.

Yeah.

You know?

I would love to imagine the Ghostbusters franchising and training a next generation and mentoring and working.

And being great at their jobs and actually turning into, yeah, competent.

There's so much more that I think could have been done if it was just like, let Ghostbusters be Ghostbusters. Like, don't try to make it something else or do other things. But I feel like that ship has sailed, it has caught fire, it has sunk to the bottom of the ocean, and oh well.

James Cameron built a sub, he photographed it, he made a movie out of it. I mean, it's like, yeah, we're done. But you know, it's like, I just, I want my generation to get their fucking hands off the tiller of popular culture. Because the idea of our idols turning out like our parents and disappointing us, I'm done seeing that in movies. Please stop.

And can we see exciting new original creations on this kind of scale, of this kind of boldness of risk-taking, of ingenuity that are, yeah, that are, that are inspired, you know, by things that have come before, but that they're moving things forward. And I think we're, we're seeing that in genre. We're seeing that in horror, whether it's, you know, sinners, weapons, obsession, back rooms, you know.

Has there been any movie since this one, though, Paul, that has that, that successfully blends the comedy and the genre in the way that this, is there anything that occurs to you that does this, that pulls off this trick?

That's a really good question.

Because, I mean, I'm trying to think about it myself, and I can't quite think of anything that, you know.

There might be something staring us in the face.

I'm blanking at, what's the Sigourney Weaver Star Trek one?

Oh, Galaxy Quest, yeah, Galaxy Quest.

Yeah, but that's not, okay, it's ostensibly an original, but it is so clearly a Star Trek movie.

Yeah, no, no, but I think it does a really good job of, what I like about it, I guess what I'm getting to is, I believe that this movie has stakes, and I believe things are happening in this movie, you know.

And also, Galaxy Quest was not a cultural phenomenon. It's a cult movie.

No, no, but I mean, but I just, cultural aside, I'm just trying to figure out if any movie has been this good at balancing those elements, and I think Galaxy Quest is the closest I can think of to. Producer Brad, how did this movie do at the box office? I heard some people dug it.

It opened on June 8th, 1984. It was number one at the box office with $13.6 million. The rest of the top five movies were Gremlins, Temple of Doom, Star Trek 3 and Beat Street. And Gremlins and Beat Street were also new movies that weekend. For the year, it was number one with $221 million, $40 million ahead of Temple of Doom. Wow.

Yeah, it was a juggernaut.

All right, now, producer Brad, what are we seeing next week? What are our choices?

Our next episode is covering June 15th, 1984. Only one movie opened, and the movie is Under the Volcano.

One of the finer Albert Phinney freakout films, actually. Yeah. Paul, so are we going to see Gremlins or Star Trek 3?

This is a perfect weekend to see Star Trek 3.

You pick it, Paul.

Yes, I want to go spend some time on the Enterprise. I want to go steal the Enterprise.

Let's go steal the Enterprise. I want to go steal the Enterprise. All right. Well, folks, it looks like it's going to be Star Trek 3 next week, and until then, we will see you in line at the multiplex.

Hey, hey, hey!